saved from injury by tractorbynet

beenthere · Sep 1, 2004

"" I immediately dropped the bucket which seemed to be what kept it from going on over ""

Sure did the right thing by lowering the bucket. And it is sometimes counter to what the instinct might tell you. As you see the loader/bucket drop (because the rear wheel is coming up) it sometimes is instinct to 'raise' on the bucket causing more of a problem. But when losing traction on the rear end because of no ballast, lowering the bucket to get the load back onto the rear wheels is the absolute right thing to do. That is a good 'habit' to get under your skin. It may come in handy if you are going down a hill, with a bucket full, and start to slip. You can't use the rear brakes, nor the back pressure on the engine, nor will 4wd help. The only solution is to drop the bucket and get the load on the ground so all the other things can work the way they are supposed to work.

OkieG · Sep 1, 2004

My very first tractor experience:

A friend dropped off his new shiny JD 755 (~20hp) with FEL at my house, and gave only basic instuctions before he left. He loaned it so I could move a dump truck load of dirt from the roadside to the veggie garden by the house. I filled that bucket and raised it plenty high, so as not to hit anything that might be in the way. Went about 10' and started to tip. I stopped the tractor right away and luckily the tractor righted itself. My heart was in my throat. Once that happens, it's hard to forget the feeling.

I'm glad your experience had a good outcome.

OkieG

shoppintractors · Sep 2, 2004

It is my understanding that most tractors are front heavy to begin with (contrary to popular belief) 

If tractors are front heavy then why are the large tires on the rear and not the front? I think that depends on the tractors rear end components. Aluminum or Cast Iron...

Don

Bob_Skurka · Sep 2, 2004

Don, nothing to really do with cast iron or aluminum. Please realize that a tractor with a cast iron rear end probably has a cast iron front end, and probably a cast iron bell housing and cast iron everything in between and most of that is actually up front forward of the operator. . . a tractor with an aluminum rear end probably has an aluminum front end and ladder frame holding it all together.

Modern CUTs really are of traditional design are designed primarily for the purpose of attaching something BIG and HEAVY on the 3pt hitch. A modern CUT looks an awful lot like a 1950's Ford. When you attach something like a rotary cutter, tiller, BB, etc to the rear end, then the rear tires begin to get a really good grip, but the little CUTs are mostly 4x4 tractors. Granted the modern CUT is typically smaller than a 50's farm machine, but the rear wheels are MUCH smaller in scale and the front tires actually are slighly larger than the 50's tractors (in overall proportion, not in actual size, remember that most CUTs are scaled down versions of the old style machines). But the little tractors many of us play with are still designed pretty much the same way. There is virtually no overhang beyond the rear axle, the engine sits pretty far forward, in many cases the operator sits directly above or slightly forward of the rear axle housing. The operator platform is basically open air space with a seat so there is virtually no weight there at all (other than the operator) and then the weight of the rear end.

On various machines, some have engines over the front axle, some slightly moved back but still primarily over the front end with the battery stuffed right behind the grillwork. The fuel tank on many brands is also over the engine, and the fuel and the engine are both pretty heavy components. Compare that to a modern car, the engines on many now sit just behind the front axle, the fuel is in the back end, the idea is to get as close to 50/50 weight distribution for enhanced performance in corners.

Now throw a FEL on the tractor and all of a sudden the dynamics really shift to the front end putting as much as 75% of the weight forward. With a loaded bucket, that number can easily reach 110% and tip the tractor on its nose, hence the need for ballast. I have one tractor with a cast iron build and one that is ladder frame, the cast iron unit is about 15" shorter LOA, 6" narrower but weighs nearly as much as the larger tractor, both need ballast to safely operate the FEL. You'd actually think the smaller heavier unit would be safe to operate without ballast, but I almost put it on its nose Tuesday night because I was rushing through something and didn't toss a ballast box or implement on the back end (tires are NOT loaded on that tractor because I want it light for many of my uses). Ballast, or counter weight is necessary regardless of if the tractor is cast iron or aluminum/ladder construction.

bandit67 · Sep 2, 2004

I learned a lesson about 14 years ago, in my early 20's, with the unbalasted rear of a tractor. I was working at one of my dad's houses, that I was living in as a renter at the time, and decided to move a large boulder. I picked it up with the bucket, and almost immediately, the weight of the rock picked the back end up until the loader was back on the ground, and I'm sitting in the seat, with the rear tires a good 3 feet off the ground.

It's probably been a good 12 years since I've operated a tractor between that little Yanmar and my new machine. Between that reminder, and all the constant warnings on TBN, I find myself always with my hand on the joystick - and last week, I had to drop the bucket a few times as I was tearing out trees by pushing them partway over until the roots broke, then grabbing the tree by the branches and backing up to pull them all the way over (all due to space constraints). A few times the trees weren't completely broken free, and upon backing up with the toothbar locked into the branches up high, the back end started to raise, even with the implement on the back. So down went the bucket very quickly, and problem avoided.

I agree - everyone talking about this stuff constantly, helps us to stay more aware, and although we may try mildly stupid things, we are aware enough to have a pre-planned quick way out of trouble.

KiotiJohn · Sep 2, 2004

I don't tend ever to laugh at others' misfortune regardless of whether they should have known better or not, so no laughs here. I also have no need to tell you what you've already learned and reinforced through experience. Just know that we've all had to learn and now you have. John

mark777 · Sep 2, 2004

Would like to share this: Assumption is what almost - and I mean real close, almost got me. Rented from a friend in the business, a skid steer (Bob Cat) loader to move pond clay and crushed concrete. I assumed that the heavy duty counter weighted body was enough for any load the bucket could hold.
Also belted in a cage, I was safe with my seat belt firmly in place.
Working on flat ground (few dips, etc) I grab a full bucket and backed out at 4' off the ground. I went down SO FAST and forward and then on my side. I was a marble in a shoebox, even with seatbelt.
Called my friend at the rentals place (he was glad that I was ok) arranged for HD wrecker to pull it right side up ($$$) no damage to the Bobcat. All said and done, I recall him saying "I assumed" you knew what you were doing. That was 3 years ago. I have never forgotten that and take plenty of time when I use my FEL on my other tractors. Regards, Mark

keeney · Sep 3, 2004

Simply had driven into pile - filled the bucket
honestly had it raised higher than needed but it was up about 6'.


That is another no-no. Driving around with the bucket up in the air. Even an empty bucket on my little 4100 with full ballast on the rear makes me nervous to move around at any kind of speed when its raised above a few feet.

Carrying the bucket down a few inches off the ground makes things feel (and probably really are) a lot, lot, lot less tippy. Even if it tips forward, there is nowhere for it to go - the bucket hits the ground.

Thats one of the main reasons I wish my little 410 loader had more roll-back, so I can carry a full bucket at the lowest possible height without spilling so much on the down-hill portions of a transfer.

Another way to think about why ballast is so important is imagine a teeter-totter pivoting on the front axle. As a rough guess, take half the weight of the un-ballasted tractor as being on the rear axle. half of 3700 lbs is 1850lbs. On the other side, take the lift capacity of the loader (I would guess over 2000 lbs for the 4720?). Ignore the empty loader itself as being mostly balanced over the front axle.

Put 2000 lbs of dirt in the bucket out front and your teeter-totter is already heavier on the bucket end of the equation. Only the longer distance to the rear axle is saving you. Add some inertia, and the chances of tipping over go up quickly!

- Rick

keeney · Sep 3, 2004

Oh, and another issue - even with the ballast, tipping to the side is still something to worry about if you hit a hole or ride one wheel up on a big rock or something. Especially when running on a side-slope.

Again, carrying the load as low-slung as possible makes the combination a lot more stable.

I even keep my 3-pt ballast block as low as possible - maybe 4 to 6" off the ground, only raising it when I have a ground-clearance issue going up the start of an incline or something.

- Rick

MikePA · Sep 3, 2004

honestly had it raised higher than needed but it was up about 6'. 
Tom, glad you are alright. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What circumstances caused the bucket to be this high in the air in the first place? I can understand circumstances requiring raising it this high before dumping the FEL, but not when filling it.