shop sweats

   / shop sweats #31  
I had also been looking at spray foam for insulating my metal building.
There are two different kinds of foam.
Polyurethane will dry hard and be water tight.
Another kind though is polyicelene (sp?). It remains porous to some degree and a little bit flexible.
There are pros and cons to both. I will go with the polyicelene when I do it though. For my 30x40' on the walls only will be about $2K. One thing they mention, have it done when it is really warm outside. It expands more that way and costs you less to get a certain thickness.
Regards,
James
 
   / shop sweats #32  
Mine was polyurethane specifically for the hard and watertight properties. If you are planning to cover the walls with something, these properties don't matter. I'd put a vapour barrier over the porous insulation tho.

On the inside of a roof, polyurethane means you don't need to sheet the inside. I painted the inside after it was cured with a high-gloss white latex paint just for looks & light reflction.
 
   / shop sweats #33  
capt jack said:
concrete slab (no vapor barrier) that sweats

I have an old barn that had the center 1/2 with a concrete floor when we purchased the place. We later poured concrete in the remainder, (with no vapor barrier). When weather changed temps a large amount, the old portion of the floor would be standing in water, but the new concrete did not. We later insulated the building with 2" vinyl back fiberglass insulation in the ceiling & regular 3-1/2" bats in the walls. The floor has not sweat since.
 
   / shop sweats #34  
I just went with NuWool Wallseal sprayed-in-place cellulose for the walls in our 42' x 72' x 12' polebarn:

Nu-Wool Insulation: Manufacturer of WALLSEAL, a spray-in-place cellulose insulation

They sprayed it in and completely filled the 7" wall cavity and then used a trimming tool to cut it off flush with the studs. It's about R-26 or R27 I believe. Once I get a ceiling up I'll probably blow in loose cellulose (dry) myself in the attic. Took them about 5 hours or so.

The cost was $2680.00 for around 2300 sq. ft. filled to a 7" depth (I have three 12' x 10' overhead doors and two 3' mandoors which cut off about 400 sq. ft.)

I posted about it here (with pictures):

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1012565#post1012565
 
   / shop sweats #35  
In my experiance, any building with a metal roof and no insulation will sweat to the point of dripping on the floor at certain times, at least in the midwest where there tends to be lots of humidity. Something as simple as putting a 1/2" layer of R-board under the steel before it is installed will solve most of the problems.

A vapor barrier under the concrete will help, especially if you have a high water table. Insulation on the walls, and especially the ceiling are the best solutions. Be sure to use insulation with a vapor barrier, otherwise you may get condensation within the insulation which isn't good.

The easiest and cheapest way to insulate an existing building is with fiberglass insulation. I would recommend using the metal building type insulation if you have something other then standard 16" or 24" spacings, as it usually comes in 5' wide rolls. It looks better when installed, and covers a large area quickly.

And yes, moisture very easily travels through concrete, but it does it has a gas much more than as a liquid. As a gas, it is known as humidity and it follows all the standard gas laws. Any gas will always try to reach equilibrium with the surrounding areas, within its container or space in which it is contained, and it travels fairly rapidly from a higher pressure area to a lower pressure area. This means that if the moisture content of the soil under the concrete is higher then that of the air above the concrete the moisture will move upward and vice versa if the soil is drier. A vapor barrier stops this transmission and keeps the concrete at a more constant overall moisture level.

Any house without a vapor barrier on the exterior walls will either be very dry in the winter (assuming it is heated) or a humidifier will need to be used constantly to try to maintain a reasonable humidity level. But a properly installed vapor barrier creates a container (so to speak) which keeps the gas in the form of humidity inside the house at a much more easily regulated level rather then allowing it to move back and forth easily right through the walls of the house. When using a free standing humidifier, it really doesn't matter where it is, as it follows the gas laws, assuming the house has a vapor barrier, and all areas of the house will very quickly achieve the same humidity levels.

Ventilation will help you some, but you need insulation in a metal building to prevent condensation unless you live in a low humidity are like the southwest.
 
   / shop sweats #36  
If your metal roof is attached to pulins, would it hurt to attach R-board to the underside of the purlins?
 
   / shop sweats #37  
kmdigital said:
And yes, moisture very easily travels through concrete, but it does it has a gas much more than as a liquid. As a gas, it is known as humidity and it follows all the standard gas laws.

kmdigital,

I'm pretty confused by your post and how you draw your conclusions to support your position. This one that I've quoted has me the most confused.

How does moisture in the ground and under a slab turn into humdity?

Ground tempatures is constant once you get down a few feet. It is impossible for liquid water to get hot enough to turn into it's gas form when it's in the ground. Evaporation is different, and it's a major part of humidity, but again, ground water or moisture does not evaporate from under a slab.

I honestly don't know if water in it's gas form will or will not pass through concrete. I don't believe it will pass through 4 inches of solid concrete in residential construction. I've seen concrete dams that are dry opposite side of the water and that's 24/7 preasure on it.

Eddie
 
   / shop sweats #38  
The moisture in the ground is constantly evaporating, unless it is sealed in by something. Don't believe this? Put a sheet of plastic down on dry ground, seal the edges with dirt and leave it for a few days. Condensation will soon form on the bottom of the plastic, even from seemingly dry dirt in the middle of the summer. The only thing that keeps moisture from evaporating over time is either when #1, the area within a "sealed" container reaches equilibrium, i.e. the air spaces are at the same humdity level as the relative moisture in the soil or #2, the humidity in the air is higher then the relative soil moisture level in which case the process is reversed and the soil will absorb moisture.

And like all natural things that move because of pressure differences (all natural things ALWAYS move from a high pressure area to a lower pressure area, which is also what causes the wind to blow), moisture will always migrate from a damper area to dryer area. It doesn't have to evaporate right away, but as the moisture migrates through capilary action towards the surface, the dryer area, it will evaporate as the soil temperature rises, at which point it moves very quickly into the air. The only thing that will stop it at that point is a vapor barrier.

This is obviously what causes the top of the ground to dry quickly after it rains, and the longer it goes betweens rains, such as in the summer, the deeper the ground will become dry, especially if the dirt is bare and there isn't any ground cover, which speeds up the evaporation rates.

The reason dams don't leak is because they are sealed with a vapor barrier of some sort on the water side, and it is also why all concrete basement walls MUST be sealed with a foundation coating before the dirt is backfilled. If this isn't done I 100% guarantee you that the concrete on the inside of an 8" thick wall will be damp a lot, especially during spring rains. It is one of the main reasons that old houses have damp basements, even if they used poured concrete walls, and especially if they used concrete block walls which are even more porous.

There are a lot of misconceptions, outright falsehoods and old wives tales out there regarding things like vapor barriers, humidity, etc. It really isn't that complicated, if you understand things like gas laws and dew point. Suffice it to say, any house that is heated in the winter and doesn't have a vapor barrier will will tend to have a very low interior humidity unless additional humidity is added.

Adding humidity isn't necessarily a good thing if your house doesn't have a vapor barrier, especially as you move further north. The reason for this is the dew point, which is the temperature at which a given humidty level at a given temperature reaches saturation, or 100% relative humdity. As the moisture inside the house travels through the walls and insulation, somewhere within the insulation the dewpoint will be reached and the moisture will condense out of the air and make the insulation wet. Obviously, wet insulation isn't a good thing.

The reason this isn't a bigger problem in most areas is becuase there are enough days in most areas of the U.S. when the weather warms up enough during the day to raise the dewpoint level within the insulation enough that the water will evaporate again and move on out through the walls to the outside without causing serious longterm damage. But as you move further north, especially into Canada the weather is colder longer, and wet insulation causes more problems.

One way to understand dew point is to watch the news. The weatherman will give you the dewpoint temperature, which is the temperature at which moisture condenses at the current humidity levels. If you are wondering if there will be dew in the morning, there will be if the overnight temperatures drop to or below the dewpoint temperature, but there won't be if the temperatures remain above the dewpoint temperature. This is assuming that the relative humidity level doesn't change meanwhile due to other factors.
 
   / shop sweats #39  
mudcat said:
If your metal roof is attached to pulins, would it hurt to attach R-board to the underside of the purlins?

I don't think I would do this. The reason is that there will be pretty large air gap between the insulation and the metal, and the metal will still likely sweat, only now it will be hidden above the insulation. The R-board will hold the water above it, and it will rot out the purlins. The insulation needs to be against the steel to prevent condensation on the bottom side of the steel. This is why pre-engineered steel buildings always recommend putting the insulation down first and putting the steel directly on top of it.

If the air space were sealed, so that no air could move between the R-board on the bottom and the steel on top this would work, but because the steel is corrugated the air easily moves between the purlins. There isn't any good way to seal this, so it would be better to put fiberglass insulation between the purlins, and then put the R-board under the purlins if you want the finished look. Doing it this way gives you a nice finished look, and will definitely solve your problem.
 
   / shop sweats #40  
Eddie,

One other reason dams don't seem to leak is that any moisture that may migrate through the concrete would evaporate either as soon as it reaches the surface or even before it reaches the surface, therefore the surface alwasys remains dry.

I know it seems impossible, but there is plenty of evidence to show that oxygen can and will migrate right through the walls of plastic or rubber pipe, even when the pipe is buried under 4" - 6" of concrete, unless the pipe has an oxygen barrier coating on it. THat is why any Pex pipe that is used for radiant heating should have an O2 barrier incorporated during the manufacturing process.

The reason it does this is again the gas laws. The water inside a closed heating system, that has any ferrous metals anywhere in the system, will be close to a zero oxygen environment. This is why you can use cast iron boilers, steel pipe and castiron pumps in a hotwater heating system without having them rust out in a few years. The ferrous metals oxidize the small amount of oxygen that is in the initial fill water and then no more rusting occurs, unless oxygen gets in from the outside or more water is added to the system.

Unbelievable as it seems, if the plastic pipe buried in the concrete doesn't have an oxygen barrier, oxygen from the air will move from the relatively high pressure surrounding air through the concrete, through the walls of the pipe and into the water, where it will start eating away at the ferrous metal in the heating system. I have seen this eat right through steel pipe in a matter of a few years. Essentially, this means that if you install a radiant heating system that doesn't have an O2 barrier on the pipe you need to make sure that all metal components of the system are made of non-ferrous materials, like brass, copper or stainless steel. Or you can add expensive chemicals to prevent corrosion, which would need to be renewed periodically, like changing the anitfreeze in your car.

The Pex-Al-Pex pipe doesn't need a separate O2 barrier because of the aluminum imbedded in the pipe automatically creates this barrier. But all other Pex pipe used for radiant heating should have an O2 barrier to prevent problems.
 

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