Backhoe Should a 448 Backhoe be able to lift a 4320?

[Seabeckredneck]

G'morning Gents,
I have a JD4320 with a 448 backhoe. I've been digging a drainage ditch and hit hardpan just a foot below the surface. I've been slowly scraping away at the hardpan so it is taking a long time. Ok, I just assume it doesn't have the power or the weight to penetrate the hardpan. Then for the first time since I've owned the outfit, I needed to lift the rear of my tractor with the backhoe to swing the rear end over only to find that I did now have the power to lift the rear tires off the ground. Shouldn't I be able to do this with the 448 or am I expecting too much? I appreciate any and all input.
Thanks from the PNW.
Chris

 

[boggen]

i know nothing about your tractor / backhoe...
3pt hitch backhoe should be able to lift rear of tractor. BUT.....

filled rear tires (with a fluid) to rear wheel weights and like. might be to much for backhoe to lift rear end.

if backhoe was created for say 3000PSI hydrualic system / tractor. and your tractor is only producing max of say 2000PSI of hydrualic pressure from pump. backhoe will never produce full power.

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be careful when trying to lift rear off ground with just the backhoe itself. (outriggers / leg on each side) that is a different story.

but trying to lift rear end can easily cause tractor to tip over.
be mindful of the front axles / tires. and would suggest putting down the FEL (front end loader) down, and my personal taste. is just barely take the pressure off the front tires with the FEL. if the FEL is up... and you try to lift rear end. your front axles may not be able to support weight. or you are at higher risk of tip over. due to how most tractors front axles angle up and down some.

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hydrualic leaks. such as seals and like both within hydrualic cylinders and in the valves, can cause loss of pressure and over all lifting capacity of backhoe would be less. raising the RPM's might get you around some leaking while tractor is running.

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a backhoe bucket with "tooth" or "teeth" on it. can make it much easier to deal with "hard compact dirt"

i normally dig a hole straight down. and then work from that hole to were ever. and when i get into harder compacted layers... i purposely put bucket edge just below the compacted layer and try to pull the compacted layer up. pulling the compacted layer up normally lets rocks / dirt / roots / concrete even to give and break some, and hopefully let ya keep on going to get a full bucket of dirt.

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one last thing. it is highly advised to have a "SUBFRAME" for 3pt hitch backhoes. if you do not have the sub frame, you are at a higher risk of "splitting" the tractor in half. unlike trucks / cars that have a full frame from front to rear. tractors normally just have a front frame for front axles, engine... everything else after that is normally transmission / final drive that do not have a frame and rely on bolts to hold everything together. a subframe for a 3pt hitch backhoe... is just that, frame work that extends normally from FEL (front end loader) frame work. all the way to rear end of tractor.

 

[Seabeckredneck]

Ryan,
Thank you very much for all that information! I didn't even consider the safety aspect of potentially tipping the tractor so I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I only ask as I've seen some backhoe operators lift the rear end of the tractor to shift it over a bit. I will look into the hyd pressures you are suggesting.
My hard pan is just like trying to chip through 18 inches of concrete. It is tough but I'm getting through it slowly. I just think it should have more power. I need to do more research to see if there is an adjustment to increase hyd pressure.
This website is an invaluable resource and folks like you taking the time to help us less experienced people is greatly appreciated.
Have a great weekend!
Chris

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

It should lift the rear with ease, I had a 448 on a 3320 and it threw the tractor around pretty good. Does any other hoe function seem week?

Matt

 

[4570Man]

If you are worried about tipping the tractor over by lifting it with a backhoe, you better just leave the tractor parked. You didn't say what position the backhoe arm was in. Mine can't lift the tractor with the arm extended very far. With the arm in the closest position the backhoe can easily lift the tractor with loaded tires even with the FEL on the ground which moves the pivot point from the front axle to the bucket edge.

 

[ishiboo]

Ryan,
Thank you very much for all that information! I didn't even consider the safety aspect of potentially tipping the tractor so I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I only ask as I've seen some backhoe operators lift the rear end of the tractor to shift it over a bit. I will look into the hyd pressures you are suggesting.
My hard pan is just like trying to chip through 18 inches of concrete. It is tough but I'm getting through it slowly. I just think it should have more power. I need to do more research to see if there is an adjustment to increase hyd pressure.
This website is an invaluable resource and folks like you taking the time to help us less experienced people is greatly appreciated.
Have a great weekend!
Chris

I think as a general rule, small CUT-based backhoes should not be used to move the tractor around, whether they're capable or not.

Commercial TLBs are designed for much more commercial/industrial work and better suited to safely doing that.

 

[jenkinsph]

I would agree that fluid filled tires or wheel weights may be too much for the back hoe to lift.

If the backhoe could not lift the tractor and get off the ditch it would not work for me.

 

[RoyJackson]

It should lift the tractor pretty easily. I've done it to test the backhoe...once. That was a vertical lift, no swinging to either side. The 4x20 series has a pretty robust mounting setup, by the way.
My tires (R-4s) are not filled. I'm not sure if Deere recommends filling tires if a backhoe is installed. I do seem to recall Kubota does not recommend filling the rear tires if a 'hoe is installed.
I would be leery about swinging the machine...but if you do, raise the stabilizers up some, but not all the way...and go slow.

 

[jloven]

I have a 448 backhoe on a 4720 tractor. The hoe will lift the rear of the tractor and move it around fairly easily. Make sure you have hoe about 2/3 extended out and lift with a combination down pressure and bucket roll. Keep out riggers about a foot or so off the ground. Should work fine.

 

[DK35vince]

I have a 448 backhoe on a 4720 tractor. The hoe will lift the rear of the tractor and move it around fairly easily. Make sure you have hoe about 2/3 extended out and lift with a combination down pressure and bucket roll. Keep out riggers about a foot or so off the ground. Should work fine.

Are your rear tires loaded ?

 

[Seabeckredneck]

Hi Matt,
Thanks for the info. I would think it should move it around easily but I don't have much experience to compare to. As far as other functions again I don't have experience with other back hoes to determine whether it seems weak.

 

[Seabeckredneck]

Hi Vince,
I'm sorry, but I don't know for sure if the tires are loaded or not. Is there an easy way of determining? I'm guessing putting the valve stem at 6 o'clock and checking that way?

 

[bdog]

The 448 has a dipstick digging force of 2435 lbs and a bucket digging force of 3730lbs. The 4320 has a listed weight of 3850 lbs plus the backhoe weighs 1420 lbs. I don;t know how the weight of the machine is distributed between the front and rear but if 50% is on the rear that weight plus the backhoe is 3345 lbs. It might not be able to lift it.

 

[Seabeckredneck]

Hey bdog,
Thanks for the info! I had no idea what the digging force was with my back hoe, but with that math it looks like you're right and it won't. I appreciate the reply. I've been digging a ditch and not only was I having difficulty with a thick layer of hard pan but there was a time where it would have been convenient to lift and shift the rear of the tractor over a bit.

 

[LD1]

Not lifting the tractor with the dipper function so that spec dont apply. You lift it with the boom. And even if it lists a max lift spec, that is irrelevant. Because lifting a load is compressing the boom cylinder. Cylinders have alot more force under extension. And lifting with the boom, you aint lifting much of the weight of the hoe, cause you are pressing it into the ground.

I suspect the problem is either:
1: you were extended too far. Lots of leverage working against you. And if you need to lift yourself, I cannot think of a reason why you would want to be extended. Cause you are either wanting to swing side to side, or push yourself along. You want to be in close to push yourself and not at the end of your travel. And for swing, again, leverage thing. Even if you could lift yourself fully extended, I doubt the swing cylinders would move you.

-or-

2: your loader was on the ground. lots harder to lift as others mentioned. And even if it did, again, harder to swing to the side with the loader on the ground. Kinda an echo of above, but I cannot think of a reason why you would want to lift the rear with the loader on the ground. Cause if you are lifting the rear, you are either wanting to push forward or swing, both of which you want the loader off the ground.

Do mess with the pressure without first checking it with a gauge.

 

[bdog]

All valid points LD1. I know that dipstick and bucket are not what is used to lift the machine I was just listing the general specs that are published for his machine. The boom lift on it is only rated at 820 lbs. As you said that is retraction and not extension so extension is much higher but just looking at all these numbers as a whole it doesn't seem that that the backhoe has a lot of force.

 

[jenkinsph]

We could arm chair debate this all day but to answer the thread just try it out.

Setting up the buckets
With the bh bucket rolled up with the teeth toward you use the flat surface to swivel on. The front bucket should be flat to the ground too, meaning don't roll it under with the cutting edge digging into the ground. Both buckets need to be able to slide on their flat surfaces. The front bucket should contact the ground when you lift the rear of the machine enough to prevent too much side to side tipping. This is most important when climbing out of a ditch.

Setting up the dipper stick and boom
Raise the boom up and set the dipper close to plumb with the bucket rolled flat and see if you have enough radius from the pivot point to swing the backhoe side to side. This can vary some depending on how much you need to move. Usually you want to be close to the machine for easier lifting but if the radius is too short you wont get enough swing to get the job done. On flat ground try lifting the backhoe and see if you can swivel side to side. If you can lift it play with it to see how much you can move and get a feel for it. Get some practice before you try to work on a ditch.

Getting off the ditch
The first thing to consider is if the place you pick is narrow enough to work safely. You should pick this spot carefully and plan for it before starting the dig. With plumbing work for instance, often both ends need to be wide and/or opened up to make connections but the middle of the line can be a simple pipe run. Better to work one direction halfway then work from the opposite end leaving a way off the ditch in a clear area.

With the stabilizers touching the ground I will move the machine so that one of these can be moved as close to the edge of the ditch as possible while still providing support for the machine. In the next move I need to be able to get the tire from that side across the ditch to the other side for support. You have to be able to do this in no more than the two moves to be successful. With both rear tires on one bank you can move a little farther over to aid in getting the front tires on the bank. Back up the machine allowing the front bucket to support the tractor while getting both front tires on the bank. Then you can raise the front bucket and clean out the mess you made.

 

[LD1]

The boom lift on it is only rated at 820 lbs.

That is at max extension, AND lifting the dead weight of the boom, dipper, AND bucket too.

In tight, with more power extending the cylinder, and not lifting the dead weight of the hoe, I thinks it should lift the tractor just fine if the pressure is at 2250psi spec and the loader is off the ground.

 

[DK35vince]

Hi Vince,
I'm sorry, but I don't know for sure if the tires are loaded or not. Is there an easy way of determining? I'm guessing putting the valve stem at 6 o'clock and checking that way?

The reason I ask is my tractor weighs around 3600 ibs (not including loader and the weight of the backhoe).
I have an additional 6 or 700 lbs of fluid in my R-4 tires.
My Rhino 85 backhoe (8 1/2' digging depth) has good power and speed, but it struggles to lift the rear of my tractor off the ground.

 

[dlrfarms]

I have a JD 4300 with a 48 hoe on the back. Fully loaded rear tires and a cab on it. Custom made mounts; Woods subframe against JD hoe. Too many horror stories about JD mounts tearing up the tractor. I can set the hoe on the ground and move the tractor any way I want to with ease. Done a lot of rough work with it and haven't broke anything yet, except for teeth.