Should I expect the worse?

PineRidge · May 21, 2005

A little over two weeks ago a guy I have known for a few years was fishing with a buddy in my pond. Somehow when he started to land one of our 10+ pound catfish he broke one of his fingers in the process. I really don't know how as I wasn't there with them when it actually happened. Fact is he didn't even think that the finger was broken until the knuckle disappeared from the finger in question. I guess the bone rotated after it broke.

I got a call this past Thursday from his buddy telling me that the bone was broken so badly that surgery needed to be performed and the bone had to be pinned to reattach. The hand will be in a cast and he will supposedly miss 6 weeks worth of work as a result of the injury.

I feel badly that this happened but had no control over the circumstances. I'm starting to wonder if I should be checking my mailbox expecting a lawsuit since this supposedly happened while fishing on my property? What do you all think, am I legally responsible here?

GaryM · May 21, 2005

I'm not a lawyer! But from what I've always been told there are several things that can affect your liability.

Was he an invited guest? Or just someone your friend brought along?

Did you know he was there?

Did you charge him for fishing in your pond?

I know that for myself, I wouldn't feel that you had any responsability at all.

JerryG · May 21, 2005

I don't know what the man may or may not do, but as sad state of affairs as the country is in I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't need a lawyer.

LMTC · May 21, 2005

I would report the incident to my insurance company asap. If you are sued, your homeowner's liability would come into play, and the insurance company will be on the hook for the first $$ (whatever you're covered for) unless they can show you were criminally negligent. They will want to be involved from the start, and may even offer to cover his expenses in exchange for a release. Definitely notify them.

With that said, if he sues you, he is, IMHO, a jacka$$. Good luck.

PineRidge · May 21, 2005

Gary I have an open door policy of sorts with the pond.

Folks don't call me, they just come fish when they find the time. I was aware that they were here fishing but I was involved in a project elsewhere on the property.

The only rules are that we have are "catch and release" of all fish but the bluegills, and everyone takes their mess with them when they leave for the day.

We have never charged for fishing and everyone has always had a good time here. Just a real unfortunate and queer accident.

MikePA · May 21, 2005

What do you all think, am I legally responsible here? 
If you do not have one already, I recommend;

1. Reducing the liability portion of your automobile insurance policy to the legal minimum.
2. Buying a General Liability policy of a $1,000,000 (or more) that covers everything, including your automobiles.

Then you'd be covered in situations such as this. You generally save more on your automobile insurance policy than the General Liability policy costs.

We did this a few years ago to cover anything our kids, dogs or horses (or Mom and Dad /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) might do.

OkeeDon · May 21, 2005

MikePA, good advice, and I wish my insurance company would allow me to do that. We have a $1 million umbrella liability policy, but one of the requirements of that policy is that every other policy we have be increased to the maximum liability for each respective policy. Thus, all of our cars must be insured for "$300,000/$300,000", or the umbrella policy will not kick in until damages reach $300,000. For example, if we reduced the car policies to $50,000, and there was a $900,000 judgment, the car policy would pay $50K, we would pay the next $250K, and the umbrella policy would kick in for the last $600K.

thcri · May 21, 2005

Don,

I am going to support your umbrella policy. As a business owner even though I am a Corporation I have a 3 million umbrella that is through my homeowners policy. Yes I did have to increase my cars but all in all it is not that expensive to have. This way if anyone sues my business for more than the insured value and they come after me for the rest I am covered. Another thing I was told by my banker and attorney. Because I have more insurance that what the law requires most judges will look at that as good faith and will only allow a suit to max at the insurance limits. In other words if someone is sueing me for 4 million more than likely the judge would put a maximum of 3 on it.

Mike, if your letting people on your property and pond you may want to think about that. A one million umbrella is not much. I think it was around a couple of hundred bucks a year.

I don't know how expensive a missing finger will be but your homeowners as is may cover it. But for what it is worth I would say you did not give him permission.

But don't take my adice, check with your insurance people.

murph

Junkman · May 21, 2005

I also thought like you did on the umbrella policy that it would cover me if I personally was sued in some way involving my business. I learned after going a few rounds with the insurance agent, and the insurance company that business ventures are not covered by your personal umbrella policy. That also goes for your company owned automobile. For this reason, I have all business policies with my self as an additional named insured. That way, I am at least covered if they sue me personally for something that the business was involved in, but didn't sue the business directly. All my personal insurance had to be the max if the umbrella was to cover it. One thing that I also learned is that if I were to be operating a borrowed boat, and I don't own a boat, my umbrella policy will cover me after the first $250. Insurance is a strange thing..... in the first 6 pages they give you a lot of rights... then in the next 12 pages, they take them away with small print.... then on the last page, you find out that you never had them in the first place since you didn't buy the policy during a full moon snow storm. Just like tractor use on your property you need to read the policy carefully and weigh each word and where and how it is placed in the sentence. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

bgott · May 21, 2005

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/real-estate/buyerguide2004/get-clue.asp

http://www.insurance.wa.gov/factsheets/factsheet_detail.asp?FctShtRcdNum=13

You don't have any idea that that he broke his finger unless you are served, as far as the insurance company goes. Once you inform the insurance company it gets filed in the "CLUE" database as a "pending" claim. That works the same as a real claim, their reasoning is that, since it did happen, they would have been liable. You stand a very good chance of losing your insurance or having the Ins. Co. make some very drastic changes to your policy that are not in your best interest.

thcri · May 21, 2005

Junkman,

You are rtight. But having the umbrella is still a good idea as president of the corporation they may come after me individually also. This is where the umbrella will pick up. In other words if someone doesn't tighten a gas line properly and there is an explosion they would go after my company but they may also come after me personnally for negligence. Even though I wasn't the one doing the gas line. The umbrella covers a lot of stuff but your right it would not cover my business or add to the insurance I have at the business.

In Mike's case it would have helped.

murph

InlineDieselFan · May 21, 2005

I did like MikePA said and saved a few$$$.

for what it is worth, this guy that broke his finger may not sue you at all. But his medical insurance (Blue Cross, Kaiser, etc.) may sue you, file a claim against your homeowners insurance.

this has been happening around WA lately, to a few people I know. Me being one of them, I crashed on the Sea Doo and needed some stitches that I put on my Blue Cross, total bill ER and DR fees about $450.00, those Montana docs were cheap. A few weeks later my Blue Cross try to go after the SD owner, I tell them that I own the SD. They then needed a copy of my policy for the SD to show that my deductible was more than my medical bill.

A guy at work has a trampoline for the his kids, neighbor kid comes over to play (invited) falls and breaks his arm. His parents medical insurance company comes after the guys homeowners insurance company.

So it may not be the guy but his medical insurance that come knocking.

steve

Henro · May 21, 2005

for what it is worth, this guy that broke his finger may not sue you at all. But his medical insurance (Blue Cross, Kaiser, etc.) may sue you, file a claim against your homeowners insurance. 

Why would one want to do THAT /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif when one does not even know if the finger is broke or not? It is all hearsay really, isn't it?

Until some kind of formal notice is given of the injury, why would anyone accept responsibiliy for the broken finger? How could one be sure it really happened on his property? Even if the finger was viewed and determined to be broken?

This is a sad place we live in if we have to worry like this about things that we don't really know even happened. And I grant you all that we do need to worry. Better stop now...starting to feel like what I want to say would be...DELETED! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

thcri · May 21, 2005

( Better stop now...starting to feel like what I want to say would be...DELETED! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif )

Awww come on Henro, tell us how you really feel!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

just kiddin

murph

Junkman · May 21, 2005

If your employee did something wrong in the performance of his job, you corporate insurance would cover it. If you exceeded that and they went after you personally, then you personal umbrella insurance would not offer you any more protection. Your personal umbrella policy only covers you for your personal acts, that are not related to any business venture. What you have said is what I also thought until I spoke to the agent, who then confirmed this with the underwriting department of the insurance company. My personal umbrella doesn't cover anything business related under any circumstances. They suggested that I purchase a business umbrella policy to cover these events and add myself as an additional named insured to that policy. I tried to add my business as an additional named insured to my personal policy and was told that it couldn't be done. Your state might be different, so check with your agent to be certain......

Junkman · May 21, 2005

It is common for medical insurance to try to collect from third parties whenever possible. Since Mike didn't supply the fishing rod or reel, he has no liability. The person who was fishing owns all the equipment and there for is responsible for all injuries caused by that rod and reel. Mike only provided the water and fish. He has no control over any act of the people fishing on the land. In fact, Mike doesn't own the water either. He only owns the land under the water. The state owns the water and fish. I don't want to get into this part of the law any further, but it is commonly accepted that you can only keep people off the land that is at the waters edge, but they can row there boat right up to that edge and they are not trespassers even if you own the land under the water. Land and water issues are very complicated, so anyone that cares to go into this further is welcome to do so, but I don't have the patience to do that much typing. Also, before anyone goes into the fishing license issues, you as the land owner don't need a fishing license to fish on your own land, but in most states, you do need one if you don't own the land that you are standing on while fishing. If you ask me, the fishermen's best claim is against the fish itself. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Henro · May 21, 2005

Since Mike didn't supply the fishing rod or reel, he has no liability. 

Not to complicate the issue, but what if the person slipped on the bank, and it was not the rod, reel or anything he brought that caused the injury.

What if it was a hole or soft spot caused by that guest of Mike's that he was trying to catch last week?

The whole issue is distasteful to me personally, but we live in the world we live in... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

goodoleboy · May 22, 2005

Ive read that some states have a law that protects land owners from people from people who are sportsman. IS your state one of them? ID find that out also and I would be carful what you say to your friend while on the phone from now on if your really fear a lawsuit.

Dang that must have been one heck of a fish.

DannyD · May 22, 2005

When my father was alive and worked on lawnmowers after retirement one of his customers came by with a tiller. Dad got it going and the guy grabbed the belts, causing major damage to his finger (belts and pulleys win against flesh). Never heard a word from it.

When Dad pulled out in front of a lady in a car, got hit broadside, the lady who got out of her car, to check it out, then sued dad's insurance for 60K. No big deal insurance paid for her to go away. Funny thing was, she had NO insurance, in a car her kid had rented and she was not listed as driver, and she had NO license to drive............she also went to the emergency room.........after she got out of the car to check her car........... This woman should have been locked up, instead she got paid.

Junkman · May 22, 2005

Sometimes the insurance companies find it less expensive to give a token amount to the claimant, rather than fight the claim. I don't agree with this attitude, but it is a business decision. Most states allow the insurance companies rate increases based on the amount of claims paid and profits retained. Therefore, it isn't a wise decision on there part to fight the claimant since they will recoup that money 100 fold in increased revenue the following year in premium increases. We all pay for the losses in higher premiums. Most insurance companies never loose money unless there is a catastrophic event that they have no control over, such as a hurricane or tornado that causes untold damage in a geographical location where the insurance company has many policy holders. Florida last fall was one of these places as an example.