Should I install a block heater?

[Don87]

I'd rather stick my tongue on a flag pole in sub-zero weather, than revisit windchill "banter":licking:

Ya know..........I'm picturing you, with your glasses, your plaid jacket, your cap, your Red Ryder BB gun...........and tongue stuck to the flagpole :thumbsup::laughing::laughing::laughing:


They should make a TV show about that :thumbsup:

 

[Don87]

Kubota (and I assume other manufacturers) clearly state in the owners and shop manuals suggested warm up times at various temperatures. The colder the ambient is, the longer suggested warmup. I like that warmup. I can get my cocoa and graham crackers.:licking:

I even warm up my tractors in the summer (to allow the a/c to cool down the cab).

Not to stray too far from the subject but, I work on large diesel engines part time. On stationary diesel gensets, they start at full rated load and rpm becaue they have to assume the load with minumum interruption. Normal start sequence is about 15 seconds after utility dropout.

It's a hoot to start a V12 Caterpillar twin turbo genset. You toggle the master start switch to on, watch the panel lights go from red to green and when the last one goes green, she starts and immediately throttles to rated rpm (usually 1500 for a 4 pole head). The twin 10" exhaust stacks blow some serious smoke and it's off to the races......

....they all have on board integrated oilers that bring the oil pressure up to rated psi (45 pounds or better) prior to start. Most, but not all also have block heaters however, it's the oil pressure that's important. Most will cold start with no block heat so long as the starting batteries will provide enough amperage or there is enough air pressure and/or volume in the pressure tank to spin the air starter if its air start and quite a few are, however, they won't start if there isn't sufficient oil pressure.

To that end, in the winter, I run a lighter grade (5-40 Rotella) instead of the 15-40 Rotella I use in the summer and I dead crank the engine (with the manual shutdown pulled) until the oil pressure light goes out and then I push in the manual shutdown and start the engine. That way, I'm assured that the oil galleries are full and pressurized and the overhead has lubrication.

I've never had an issue with a dead crank even in the coldest weather but I do make sure my batteries are fully charged, the terminals are free from oxidation and the batteries aren't old. Batteries get weaker with age. About 4 years is tops and time for a new one.

Diesels all cackle when cold. Some cackle all the time. A 1693 Cat sounds like it has ball bearings inside the cylinders, warm or cold. The cackle is actually combustion and the noise you hear is a result of the combustion chamber shape and the base compression ratio.

I want to hear that rattle. It means it's making power.

Good post, Thanks.

 

[Egon]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2Efb9iTlxsM/Ss-PeO7N-UI/AAAAAAAAABw/WPHmpqWa7Ow/s320/CB+Integral.jpg

5030; back in my misspent youth I had the privilege of starting various types of engines like the one shown on a very frequent basis.

Starting was all manual with air. It got interesting if one backfired on you or started detonating while running

The pre lube was manual by just turning the engine over with air. The turbo had pre and post lube. They ran 24/7/365 and got one oil change a year. Used a 30 weight low detergent oil.

 

[leonz]

I love my 175,000 B.T.U. salamander more than I love Startmaster air starters,
Its nice knowing I can use JP4 and JP5 and No.2 fuel oil in it to.
they have come long way apparently in 17 years.



______________________________________________________________
Once you go flail you never go back:thumbsup::licking::drool:

 

[5030]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2Efb9iTlxsM/Ss-PeO7N-UI/AAAAAAAAABw/WPHmpqWa7Ow/s320/CB+Integral.jpg

5030; back in my misspent youth I had the privilege of starting various types of engines like the one shown on a very frequent basis.

Starting was all manual with air. It got interesting if one backfired on you or started detonating while running

The pre lube was manual by just turning the engine over with air. The turbo had pre and post lube. They ran 24/7/365 and got one oil change a year. Used a 30 weight low detergent oil.

Those are a bit bigger than what I tinker with. The ones I fiddle with are mostly trailer mounted, on a semi trailer. The radiator is out front, the fam blades driven hydraulically, then the engine and behind that, the generator head and lastly the switch gear and control panel. They are easy to service because everything is out in the open.

I like the Cats but the Detroit's are interesting too. Detroit Diesel quit offering their 2 stroke exhaust ported diesels for on road application years ago but they still offer the engines for stationary/vocational application because the 2 stroke Detroit is actually a very efficient and low maintenance engine when running at rated RPM on a continuous basis. An ideal engine for vocational equipment like draglines and scrap yard cranes where the engine is running 1500 rpm for hours on end.

Yeras ago, I worked for the company that made the cranks and camshafts for Electromotive so I got to visit the plant in McCook, Illinois regularly. You could order an Electromotive engine in configurations from 4 cylinder to 32 cylinder. All the main blocks were steel weldments so increasing the cylinders was just a matter of building a larger block. The cylinders (power packs) were in field removable and replaceable and they were designed on the 2 stroke principle, valved intake, ported exhaust. The cranks and camshafts were companion flanged so multiples were bolted together to attain the desired cylinder arrangement. If a cylinder went down in the field, you just opened the access plate opposite the suspect cylinder, unbolted the connecting rod and used a crane or stinger to pull the suspect cylinder and installed a complete new cylinder with piston and con rod already installed. Bolted up the lower con rod half and went back into service.

There seems to be a lot of misconception on this site (and others) concerning cold starting and what causes premature internal wear on an engine and it's not the cold start at all, it's the lack of oil flow (at pressure) to vita moving and sliding surfaces at start that contributes to accelerated wear. That's all I'm driving at.....

There is no more induced wear at -10 than there is at +100 (so long as there is lubricant present) and under pressure.

The only drawback with a cold ambient temperature start is it takes a fairly high base compression ratio to ignite the diesel in a stone cold combustion chamber because diesels are compression (and to a certain extent residual heat) ignition. That's why a cold (below freezing) ambient temperature diesel will blue smoke at start. It's incomplete combustion dur to a cold combustion chamber and why glo plugs are employed in prechamber engines...to artificially heat the prechamber and promote compression ignition.

It's also why stringent emission standards will obsolete diesels eventually. The particulates are the culprit. Diesels all emit particulates even when at operating temperature and experiencing complete combustion. You'll see an ongoing trend to NG conversions from diesel. Actually, all the engine manufacturers (large diesel) already offer NG engines for hazardous location service. It's much cleaner, however, the btu per volume of fuel consumed is less than diesel so the efficiency goes down and the fuel usage goes up. However, because the particulates aren't present, the lubricating oil stays cleaner (oil gets dirty from byproducts of combustion getting past the rings and valve guides), so the change intervals will extend and the now present (and expensive) emission controls on onroad emission compliant diesels will disappear.

That additional cost on the average, for a 2011 emission compliant Class 8 Diesel is around $20,000.00 for catalytic convertors, computer controls, exhaust gas regeneration and associated hardware plus they are very tempermental. None of which a true diesel is supposed to be. The extended (500K warranty is gone as well because to meet emissions standards, the engines run extremely hot. Heat means complete combustion but excess heat breaks down oil, antifreeze and destroys internal parts.

Caterpillar, by the way, is out of the Class 8 market altogether. The fabled big yellow motor isn't available anymore. Cat wants to build a reliable, long lasting engine and that won't happen under the current emission rules.

 

[radioman]

5030, This is a very enlightened post. :thumbsup: It appears to make me understand why NYS and some other states like california doesnt want some certain diesel vehicles here, even if we get better MPG and power to weight ratio. I was under the impression that diesel is better then gas, easier to make fuel ( I think) from other sources then dino oil, and could be cheaper then gas if everybody was using it. No spark plugs, carbs, to worry about, less oil changes oveer gas.

can you explain a bit more about the tempermental issues with NG ?

 

[5030]

5030, This is a very enlightened post. :thumbsup: It appears to make me understand why NYS and some other states like california doesnt want some certain diesel vehicles here, even if we get better MPG and power to weight ratio. I was under the impression that diesel is better then gas, easier to make fuel ( I think) from other sources then dino oil, and could be cheaper then gas if everybody was using it. No spark plugs, carbs, to worry about, less oil changes oveer gas.

can you explain a bit more about the tempermental issues with NG ?

The downfall of the diesel, if you will, is the particulate emissions. With gasoline engines, you have carbon monoxide and oxides of nitrogen but no particulate matter (soot) or at least so little it's not of consequence.

With diesels you have not only particulate emissions (black smoke...soot), but greenhouse gas emissions too. With NG, you have carbon dioxide, no particulates and CO, while tree huggers classify it a greenhouse gas, it's essential to photosynthethsis or growing plants. Growing plants convert CO to O2.

NG has some issues, mostly in fueling and delivery. NG is pressurized so the storage tanks on vehicles have to be pressure bottles and they have to be idiot proof, just like thr OPD propane bottles on a gas grill. They will require specialized filling stations so if and when NG replaces diesel in smaller engines, you won't be filling your CUT with a five gallon can of fuel, you'll be filling a bottle with NG in the liquified form and fueling the engine with vapor.

Conventional diesels are about at the far end of emissions compliance now, which is why all diesels sold after 2011 have a blue filler cap next to the fuel cap for 'Diesel Exhaust Fluid', nothing more than Urea at a 32% concentration. The urea is injected into the exhaust stream to catalyize the particulates and burn them off, as much as possible. Even small diesels in compact tractors will require DEF at some point and the associated hardware which will increase the price and decrease the reliability of the engine because the more complex a deisel gets, the less reliable it is. Engine manufacturers are building engines today that run hotter and urea injection causes even more heat and the heat factor is adversely affecting reliabliity and warranty periods, increasing the cost (for components) and driving conventional diesels to the grave.

One way or another, the enviromental police will eventually obsolete the diesel we all know. Just when is conjecture but it is coming.

 

[flyingcow]

Just bought a new class 8 rig. This one is '07 compliant(2011 model year). No ureu, but does have the Diesel particulate filter, with a "burner" on it. That gets crazy hot when it's burning off the particulate matter. The units with the urea are in the category of "so far so good". Navistar does have '10 compliant motors that don't need urea. In 2005 i bought a new International truck. $105,000. Same spec'd truck in 2011 is $145,000. Always seen increases, but.....? A good part of that increase is the new emissions and warranties to cover those parts. But it is really neat when the inside of the stack is shiny clean!


Oh BTW, it does have a kick azz blockheater!

 

[5030]

Just bought a new class 8 rig. This one is '07 compliant(2011 model year). No ureu, but does have the Diesel particulate filter, with a "burner" on it. That gets crazy hot when it's burning off the particulate matter. The units with the urea are in the category of "so far so good". Navistar does have '10 compliant motors that don't need urea. In 2005 i bought a new International truck. $105,000. Same spec'd truck in 2011 is $145,000. Always seen increases, but.....? A good part of that increase is the new emissions and warranties to cover those parts. But it is really neat when the inside of the stack is shiny clean!

The burner is termed regeneration. And yes they run very hot, about 1200 degrees during regen.

I'm an old time trucker so a clean exhaust is indicative of no power and that clean inner pipe comes at a great cost in emissions controls and fuel economy.

I believe it you look closely, the emissions parts are covered longer than the engine internals but that's by government mandate not manufacturers choice.

I've seen old style non emissions DDEC I and II engines go 500K and all that has to be done is flip the cam bearings on a tuneup. DDEC III engines are coming apart at much less than 500K and the DD15's and 16's are puking head gaskets. The only engine that's reliable is a Volvo (Vo-Mack) but a nightmare to work on.

You can't recirculate and reburn spent exhaust gasses and particulates without doing internal damage. It don't work any more than Obama's agenda.

In the end, the diesel will be NG.

 

[flyingcow]

You are correct, the emissions side does have a warranty...5yrs or 125,000 miles. I run about 110,000 a year. But they did do what the government asked, put an extended warranty.

I just put 640,000 miles(and 20,000 hours) on a ISX "02 compliant motor. Other than a few EGR valves and one cooler, it was a decent motor. Never broke it open. But because i haul 100,000lb loads i did a service every 10,000 miles, not every 15 or 20 as the experts told me. Plus old habits are hard to break. But i was also concerned about the motor being washed in particulate matter.

i tried out a Mack 505hp unit. Loved the motor all around, but wasn't impressed with what looked like a maintenance nightmare that awaited.

if i end up having a lot of problems with what i just bought, in a few yrs i will put an off road kit in the motor. Basically you remove the burner, reflash the ECM, repipe the exhaust. EPA legal? No, but i run local and there are no emissions inspections in the area I live.

I still miss my ole' N14's! Cat made a nice motor in that era, and detroit had the best running, fuel mileage(and longevity) of all 3.

5030- you know this, but the irony of all this emissions crap is that our mpg has gone down since the gov mandates. So now we're burning more diesel. Noticed a slight dip when they started lowering the sulfer content. Lowering sulfer hurt the performance of everything. Tractors, home heating fuel, etc.