Sickle or disk mower

nebrancher · Mar 6, 2006

I am thinking about getting a "new" mower and I would like some opinions. I currently have one double 7' Kosch sickle and one 9' JD sickle mower. I am possibly haying by myself this year, so speed is important, and here is what I was thinking about as far as choices. I have varying types of grass, a lot of lowland/thick (if it would ever rain), and some very thin, mostly flat ground. I only go over about 900 acres or so a year. The two choices below are basically about the same price.

A Kosch double 9' hydraulic drive sickle mower. This is similar to a Rowse mower, but I will not buy any Rowse product no matter what.

A Vermeer TM800 disc trail mower 10.5' cut. I don't know anyone that has a disc mower, and I know little about them. I thought I heard that you could mow faster with them. If so would it be possible to mow about as much ground (in the same ballpark or close) as the 18' sickle?

I don't want a mower conditioner, anyone I've seen with those the hay gets moldy before it's dry, even when they turn the row over. I don't want a drum mower, I don't think there are any of those around.

Thanks.

JoeinTX · Mar 6, 2006

Well, for the same money, go with the disc mower. They will cut faster versus the sickle mower, virtually no clogs, but many see the sickle being less rough on the crop.

I have a sickle mower and spend the time stopping to clear it, but I've seen disc mowers work and love the simplicity and speed.

Birdman · Mar 6, 2006

Disc mowers are rare around here but last summer I was "down home" (KY) and watched my cousin mow hay with one. It was an irregular shaped field and the hay stand came to a long point, never once did he slow down or get clogged up, while mowing the point. The only complaints I have heard about the disc mowers is they throw "stuff" all over you, mostly wet plant parts but also rocks if you have any in the field.

HayDR · Mar 6, 2006

nebrancher
 A Vermeer TM800 disc trail mower 10.5' cut. 
The TM800 is a unique product on the market. The TM800 will mow in any trailed position from directly behind the tractor to off to the side and can be changed on the go. The patented floating suspension too is different than all the others. If you would contact and object the suspension swings back and up in the same motion. Other MFG's when contacting a object take a nose dive and have to climb over the object.

The Vermeer also has the quick clip change feature, saving you time when you change the blades. If you want to mow at 10+ MPH this mower will handle that easy. The suspension allows the mower to float even in the roughest situations.

You can mow any crop in any condition with this mower. Blown down Rye? no problem, vetch? no problem. You cam mow in the rain if you want. When you look at the features an benefits on the Vermeer TM series mowers they stand alone in the field.

nebrancher · Mar 6, 2006

Any way of figuring/guessing how much faster the disc will go in average conditions, ballpark figure anyone? I'd like to cut faster/more area than my 14' does. My 14' usually goes without breaking a whole lot (although I'm guessing it's about 40 years old), and I don't have to unclog it very often, but with 2 7' sickles, 3 pitman sticks (it mounts on the side of my 530 jd), guards, mount bolts, belts, bearings, and in addition having to keep an eye on the other 9' mower (pitman also), and figuring in messing with carburetors, points, coils and everything else on occasion, I guess I am getting a little tired of them.... But I guess I only have to deal with them about a month out of the year. Either the disc mower or hydraulic mower should be an improvement over what I am doing now. I've looked at both types of mowers, I like the looks of both of them, the Vermeer looks very "simple", I just don't know about reliability and speed, compared to the sickles I'm used to. Thanks.

Mike981 · Mar 6, 2006

I'd say the disk mower is the better idea I haven't had any experience with any that size I just use a 7 foot john deere disk and It cut my mowing time in half and personally I think the hay seems to dry a lot faster with a disk vs a sickle. The others seem to be right on the disk doesn't clog hardly at all and the draw back is that it does throw stuff at you but usually the heavy tarp stops most of it but the ocasional object can fly towards the tractor. But as far as mowing time, I mow on a rather steep hill and it used to take me around 4 1/2 hours to cut one of my fields that's roughly 20 acres give or take and the disc mower cut that down to aroud 2 to 2 1/2 hours tops. I will mention though that the only other draw back that I've experienced with my disk mower is that it does burn a lot more fuel then the sickle does but personally I think it does a lot better job and is a lot quicker so in my opinion it's definately worth it.

JoeinTX · Mar 7, 2006

Whew, I don't know if I could reach a mathematical figure of cutting time disc vs. sickle but suffice to say that the disc is a superior cutting machine.

As Mike said above, he thinks it's cutting field time roughly in half. Each individual disc unit has more kinetic force than the comparable width of sickle teeth due to less friction from being mounted on bearings plus their spinning action. Compare with a sickle bar sliding back-and-forth with only the benefit of grease. Try sliding a ruler back and forth on a table top and then spin a top on the same surface....which moves easiest with the least effort?

However, the disc unit seems to require a little more HP than the equivalent sickle unit to run, but you cover ground faster too.

I've heard it said that the drum mower is the best of both worlds. It moves faster than a sickle bar while requiring less horses to do so than a disc, but I've never been around one.

Robert_in_NY · Mar 7, 2006

If you get a trailed Discbine like what Mark showed you do not need to worry so much about having things thrown at you. I have been using a discbine for two seasons now and I can't remember ever having any stones or grass thrown on the tractor or me. The 3pt mounted disc cutters I have heard would throw more material but not the trailed models. I have run mine on steep hills where the woodchucks have made a home as well as rutted up flat ground (never again /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif) and no matter how many stones I find /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif I have never had one come close to hitting me or my tractors.

Having said that I am most likely going to catch a stone up side my head the first day I go out this year /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Speed wise, the disc mower is amazing compared to a sickle mower. I went from a 489 NH to a 2340 Gehl. The discbine uses more horses but you cut a lot faster and I have never had a plug. You also don't have any problems cutting irregular shaped fields or running into previous swaths with a disc mower. I can't ever see myself going back to a sickle style machine unless there was some crop that the sickle mower worked better on.

Also, the hay should not get moldy because of the conditioner. If anything the condition would help speed up the drying. In grass hay the conditioner really does not speed anything up but if you are cutting legumes it will help a lot.

rambler · Mar 7, 2006

(
Also, the hay should not get moldy because of the conditioner. If anything the condition would help speed up the drying. In grass hay the conditioner really does not speed anything up but if you are cutting legumes it will help a lot.

)

I was totally baffled by that comment also, but didn't want to hijack the thread. I can't think of any possible situation where such a thing could be true. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

--->Paul

nebrancher · Mar 7, 2006

Thanks for all the info. I guess a couple of the neighbors do have sickle conditioners (maybe that's the difference). I've looked at the rows laying in the field, the outside will be dry, and the center and bottom not. They said very often you have to turn the rows over to get them to dry. Also they have to leave them lay over more than a day, same with any field I've ever driven by, I see the rows laying for a couple days or more. I've bought truckloads of alfalfa, not all but several bales were moldy. I talked to a couple people around here about it, they said that it was common not to dry evenly. I guess I don't see much point in having a conditioner. I guess the way it is, on a good warm day a person can mow in the morning and start baling in the afternoon, for sure the next morning. It would only pay to dry faster (if they do that, I haven't seen that here at all) if there were more than a person or two in the field.

I don't know any place within 100 miles that sells drum mowers, I've heard they are good too, but I thought they were smaller.

One more thing though, do things like bearings/gears bother much with the disk mower?

Robert_in_NY · Mar 7, 2006

If you are use to cutting with a straight sickle mower then there could be a problem. The simple sickle mower leaves the hay right where you cut it. Spread out.

The mower/conditioners move the hay inward and even with a wide swath you still have the hay merged in some. I can't speak for the hay farmers in your area but if they are getting moldy hay it is not from the conditioner, it is from not raking properly. All the conditioner does is crimp the stems on stemy crops that helps reduce drying time by giving moisture more places to escape.

If you are doing alfalfa then I would definitely go with a conditioner.

As for bearings, I had to replace the upper conditioner rolls right side bearing on my discbine this winter. Bearings do wear out but it is not a big deal to replace one.

You do not have your location filled out but I am going to assume you are from Nebraska as that is all I can make sense out of your sreen name (Nebraska Rancher?). If so I would suggest you talk to Bill Wilson as he is much smarter then I am and should be able to explain why your neighbors might be having trouble with their hay. He is located in Texas and is a great guy with a wealth of information. You can post your questions for him on this site Crop Talk His username is Hay Wilson

cmfarmer · Mar 8, 2006

I guess I'll throw my thoughts in. I had been cutting with a sickle based conditioner until I hit a hidden stump in a neighbor's field 4 years ago, and that pretty much did the haybine in.

I bought a Krone 8' (roughly) disc mower and don't regret it one bit. BTW, this mower is totally shaft and gear driven, similar I believe to the Deere. It has been absolutely troublefree.

Drying time is a little longer than a conditioner, so I tedder with a 4 basket.

Keeping the mower at PTO speed, I've never had a clog.

It has the breakaway which has come in handy, reference the demise of my MO-CO. Since I hardly use my rotary mower anymore and use the disc instead, the only time I have a debris problem is when I set the cut real high, for instance, when doing pasture trim work. This can expose the cutting head from under the curtain a little more and move the trajectory path up.

My experience is if you can stay in the seat and don't have any obstacles in the field that's your cutting speed.

One thing to consider is that there is a fair amount of weight on the back especially when the cutter bar is up. The tractor I have now is 65 PTO hp, MWFD with 500 lbs. of front weight and that handles it very well.

As was pointed out before, dragging all that weight over the ground does burn a noticeable amount more fuel, but to me that's a very acceptable trade-off.

rambler · Mar 8, 2006

As Robert mentions, we have to assume you are in Nebraska. I aree with his message, check out Hay Wilson.

Here in Minnesota, and probably in NY too, we need to wait 3-5 days for hay to dry out after cutting. A conditioner can take one to two days off of that wait. Which is a good thing, with all the rain we get! Almost impossible to make stemmy hay, such as alfalfa, without a conditioner.

It is hard for me to relate to the short drying times you have, so my advise on hay making probably diesn't help you.... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

One does not really use the conditioner to make swathes ready to bale. The conditioner cracks the stems in the hay, so that the juice can dry out of the stems quicker. Thus the stems & the leaves dry out at the same time. One should typically rake either conditioned or mowed hay into a windrow tho, let the other side dry.

The conditioner is not causing the mold, it is poor operators not doing things right.

If you need to speed up hay drying, or less mold, a conditioner is what will help. Not hurt.

--->Paul

jwcinpk · Mar 12, 2006

Disc mowers are absolutely wonderful, once you buy one you will wonder why you have waited. I bought a new First Choice 8ft cut and have used to cut about 350 acres over 2 years and have had no trouble at all. I've not used the Vermeer brand but they look to be an excellent machine. I agree you will basically double the amount you can mow in the same amount of time.
Check out the Fort First Choice brand they are a good tough machine.

Dickey · Mar 12, 2006

I was wondering if a Disk mower can be used to cut up or down grade like on a pond levee or ditch bank

cowboydoc · Mar 12, 2006

Unless you had very thin short sparse hay I can't imagine mowing in the morning and haying in the afternoon. In Idaho it's as dry as anywhere in the country and it takes at least two days before we can bale. Alfalfa up to three days. If you're getting moldy hay that's a case of the person not taking caqre of the hay properly. 900 acres is alot of hay to do. Why not get a swather if you really want to cut your haying time down??

nebrancher · Mar 12, 2006

I've only bought some of that hay that was moldy, and only some of what was purchased, was moldy, not a whole lot. As I said in post #839103, I've seen the centers of the rows that come out of the mowers not get dry... in places. I imagine they just bale when the field is ready, and keep going if they run into a patch that isn't completely dry. The volume most people do around here it would not be possible to take time to check/wait/go around absolutely everything that wasn't perfect. I guess I would if I would be selling hay, but that's me, and they don't. I didn't go into detail on this because I don't have a problem with mold, ever. I guess I shouldn't have mentioned the mold....

Very few have swathers/mocos around here, very seldom are there any used ones (very used if they are, sickle only), and new ones are far too expensive (I know they're bigger too). I'd like something faster than I have, but I have to look at the $, and I don't want something that will need constant repairs (although I can fix anything myself, I just don't like constant problems). I don't see it drying any better or faster than it does, and my rake works well.

Anyway I have grass only, and yes it is possible to mow in the morning and bale in the afternoon. Not every day, and not in every patch, but it is very possible. It has to be dry, above 90, (or 100...), and it works nicely when it works.

I take it the disk mower is the best option then.... If a person can go in the ballpark of twice as fast as a similar sickle, then it should be at least close to if not faster than the 18' then. Thanks for all the advice, I'll see if I can get one this season. I kind of wondered when virtually everyone I know has sickle mowers. Most of them have a lot more ground to cover than me, and more help, I thought perhaps they knew something I didn't about them. The ones I did ask said they didn't know anything about disk mowers though I guess.

For some reason I've never taken many pictures of the field when working, but I have one picture more than a month before haying (in a patch I don't hay though, but next to it). Also another in a field, but on a dry strip that doesn't get mowed, after the rest was mowed. See homepage in profile. Save the pictures and then view them to make them bigger.

dgl24087 · Apr 1, 2006

One of my uncles was one of the first to ever use a disc mower wher I am from, and was amazed at the time it took off the mowing stage of hay production. This was back in the 70's, not exactly sure of the year. Since then, I believe between he and my cousin, they have used 4 or 5, all but one being New Holland, the other a Kuhn. Don't be fooled by names, NH, Gehl, Case, as well as Deere, have their premium disc mowers manufactured for them by Kuhn. Their economy disc mowers are manufactured by Fort, but with Kuhn components in the cutting bar. I've seen these in action, and the only thing to slow you down is the roughness or steepness of the ground, or your nerve. On relatively good terrain, you can run your tractor wide open with no problem.

HayDR · Apr 1, 2006

New Holland had Kuhn mowers until the Mid-1990's but not now. Their shaft drive mowers are a New Holland product and their economy mowers are made by Sitrex with a Comer cutterbar.

Gehl does use the Kuhn cutterbars.

Case has never used Kuhn. Case has over the years used Lely and New Idea products.

Deere's 3 point mowers are Kuhn's.

Fort Pegoraro is separate manufacturer owned by the Morra Family and part of AGRO SPA . The Fort mower cutterbars look like a Kuhn but are made 100% by MBS another company of the ARGO Group. I have been in the factory. Fort also makes mowers for First Choice, Darrell Harp & Farmtrac. The current Kuhn hitch has patent protection left on it for 10 more years and the Fort/ Morra hitches are different from Kuhn.
Mark Carter

jwcinpk · Apr 2, 2006

What about the Vermeer? Who makes it? Is Fort/First Choice really an economy model? I've run mine hard and long and not had any problems with it? 3yrs about 1000 rolls cut!
Thinking about going down a disc so I'm interested in what's best. Don't see anything round here cept the First Choice and Deere.