Having lived in Aberdeen a couple of times and spent much of my youth at Nigg Bay and Ardersier, I completely understand your logic. Good luck in fixing your vacuum!
single to double conversion
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Having lived in Aberdeen a couple of times and spent much of my youth at Nigg Bay and Ardersier, I completely understand your logic. Good luck in fixing your vacuum!
I can't find any info on that pump setup
But from the webpage you linked it says:
But you only have one hose to the cylinder?
Are they any unused ports on the pump housing?
Does the pump run when you are lowering the dump?
It is very possible to use the DA (dual acting) cylinder as a SA (single acting) and you may just be a DA cylinder-there is however "usually" a vent on the unused port rather than just a plug
Here is something to try-just a feeling I have-and it's free...Take the plug out of the cylinder and see if it dumps better. It is possible that since the port is plugged the piston is having to suck air past the seals causing the resistance you are feeling.
I spent most of the day vacuuming horse poo with the machine today!
I removed the plug at the top of the cylinder. As I was unscrewing it, there were a few tiny air bubbles and a few drops of oil but there is definitely no hole in the plug. It is a plain blanking plug.
I worked the ram a few times and air seems to be escaping on the downward stroke around the seal around the rod.
As you can see from the pictures, there is only one hose. But there is also a blanking plug (?) on the pump.
Half the problem to emptying is a lip around the sides of the hopper exit door which inhibits the material simply sliding out. The fancy moulding on the sides of the hopper, presumably for stiffening, doesn't help either. I was thinking that fixing a flat surface (chloroplast?) on battens to the insides (to remove all these obstructions) would help emptying.
But the major problem is returning the hopper to horizontal after it has been tipped. Even when empty, it needs manual assistance and if there is material stuck inside the hopper it is impossible to upright. And to clean it out with a fork when in this position would need a contorionist!
I have not had much help from the people selling this machine as I suspect they will be dealing mostly with lady horse owner customers who don't question these things. Also, I don't think they know -- hence the item about DA hydraulics on the web page when it is clearly SA.
Any comments you can make would be very helpful as I know next to nothing about hydraulics.
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kennyd
Advertiser
Bummer, I was hoping take the plug out would help...It "looks" like a DA cylinder to me so it should have a vent-NOT a plug.
I would contact the motor/valve manufactures and see if that unit you have can operate a DA cylinder, I see a plug next to where the hose connects? That will be the best solution.
Does the motor run when you lower the dump?
I would contact the motor/valve manufactures and see if that unit you have can operate a DA cylinder, I see a plug next to where the hose connects? That will be the best solution.
Does the motor run when you lower the dump?
Kubota 2350
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That looks just like the hyd pump on my travel trailer for moving the slid outs in and out.
Will the pump run in reverse?
If it will, the other plug on top in the picture can be used for the other port on the cylinder to make it have force going back down.
Will the pump run in reverse?
If it will, the other plug on top in the picture can be used for the other port on the cylinder to make it have force going back down.
FLHayman
Bronze Member
I have a number of single acting cylinders on my farm equipment that are, in fact, double acting cylinders with little plugs on one side that have a mesh/breather built in to the plug, to theoritically stop contamination as the cylinder returns to original position driven by the weight of the implement. In all cases of mine, they can be changed to dual acting simply by adding a line to the 2nd port on the cylinder. In your case, that would involve running the pump in reverse (not necessarily built into the pump design) or adding an open center reversing valve. On my tractors, there is no great reason to have them be single acting except to simply save the extra hose, since I have to have a 3 position valve, (up, hold, down) or a float detented valve (up, hold, down, float: all valves open) to allow it to gravity-return to parked position.
Looks to me from the picture, like you could add a valve and a hose to force the cylinder back into parked position. All cylinders that I have used will accept hydraulic pressure from both sides of the piston inside. I know there are specialized ram cylinders that use pressure from one side only, but that one sure looks like a regular cylinder.
Looks to me from the picture, like you could add a valve and a hose to force the cylinder back into parked position. All cylinders that I have used will accept hydraulic pressure from both sides of the piston inside. I know there are specialized ram cylinders that use pressure from one side only, but that one sure looks like a regular cylinder.
"Does the motor run when you lower the dump?"
No. It is meant to return by gravity.
"Will the pump run in reverse?"
No. But the manufacturers seem to make a number of similar units with different specs. See here:
http://www.stonehydraulics.com/productfamilies.aspx?sPgPh=Power Units&sPoductId=8&Application=DC Power Units
Also here: Both single and double acting pumps listed.
eBay Seller: floridahoseguys: Business, Office Industrial items on eBay.co.uk
"Looks to me from the picture, like you could add a valve and a hose to force the cylinder back into parked position. All cylinders that I have used will accept hydraulic pressure from both sides of the piston inside. I know there are specialized ram cylinders that use pressure from one side only, but that one sure looks like a regular cylinder."
For this cylinder to operate DA, wouldn't the internal seals need to be changed? At the moment, when it extends, air appears to be forced out through the seal around the rod at the end of the cylinder and hydraulic fluid would go the same way. Unless, of course, there is a pump that will suck (pull) as well as blow (push). This is something I just don't know about and rely on you guys for advice.
Again, wouldn't there need to be a second hose (return) to return the used fluid back to the reservoir if set up to work double acting?
No. It is meant to return by gravity.
"Will the pump run in reverse?"
No. But the manufacturers seem to make a number of similar units with different specs. See here:
http://www.stonehydraulics.com/productfamilies.aspx?sPgPh=Power Units&sPoductId=8&Application=DC Power Units
Also here: Both single and double acting pumps listed.
eBay Seller: floridahoseguys: Business, Office Industrial items on eBay.co.uk
"Looks to me from the picture, like you could add a valve and a hose to force the cylinder back into parked position. All cylinders that I have used will accept hydraulic pressure from both sides of the piston inside. I know there are specialized ram cylinders that use pressure from one side only, but that one sure looks like a regular cylinder."
For this cylinder to operate DA, wouldn't the internal seals need to be changed? At the moment, when it extends, air appears to be forced out through the seal around the rod at the end of the cylinder and hydraulic fluid would go the same way. Unless, of course, there is a pump that will suck (pull) as well as blow (push). This is something I just don't know about and rely on you guys for advice.
Again, wouldn't there need to be a second hose (return) to return the used fluid back to the reservoir if set up to work double acting?
kennyd
Advertiser
Yes, gravity. But the valve has to let the fluid back to the tank somehow-so when you push the "lower switch" something let that happen-I was just curious if the pump ran during that time.
That link does not work. But lets try this one Stone Hydraulics Can you verify the model number you have?
No, the seals are the same. The air can be compressed and forced past the rod wiper seals whereas the fluid cannot. This is why I thought removing that plug would help, so the air could easily escape.
Yes, a second hose from the top cylinder port back to the control valve.
Ultimately, I think the cheapest solution will be to talk to Stone and see what it will take to upgrade your pump to operate a DA cylinder-then add the extra hose.
Please verify the model of the power unit you have...
J_J
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Seems to me that if it was originally designed to power up and gravity down, then, there is something not working correctly.
Actually air in the rod chamber doesn't have anything to do with the force of the single acting cylinder, but if the air can not escape out of the breather, then the piston will force the air out of the seals. I don't think that is how it is supposed to work. If the base side fluid is released, then the weight of the box should be enough to suck in air and collapse the cylinder. So perhaps the valve controlling the cyl is not working correctly.
Springs could pull the box back down if the fluid is released from the base end, but if it has to work to suck in air just to let the rod retract by weight, it may hang up or no do anything. .
Perhaps someone took out the breather and put a plug in it's place. Take the plug out and see if the cylinder works like it is supposed to. If it works good, put a filtered breather plug in there.
Quote:
Problems arise with conventional breathers in that fine screens can often plug up such that air will not pass through them as required for proper operation, while coarser screens can allow dust to enter the barrel and damage the walls and sealsof the hydraulic cylinder. As well moisture can condense in, or be drawn into, the barrel, especially when operating in humid conditions or rain, causing rust and corrosion and premature failure of the cylinder.
Actually air in the rod chamber doesn't have anything to do with the force of the single acting cylinder, but if the air can not escape out of the breather, then the piston will force the air out of the seals. I don't think that is how it is supposed to work. If the base side fluid is released, then the weight of the box should be enough to suck in air and collapse the cylinder. So perhaps the valve controlling the cyl is not working correctly.
Springs could pull the box back down if the fluid is released from the base end, but if it has to work to suck in air just to let the rod retract by weight, it may hang up or no do anything. .
Perhaps someone took out the breather and put a plug in it's place. Take the plug out and see if the cylinder works like it is supposed to. If it works good, put a filtered breather plug in there.
Quote:
Problems arise with conventional breathers in that fine screens can often plug up such that air will not pass through them as required for proper operation, while coarser screens can allow dust to enter the barrel and damage the walls and sealsof the hydraulic cylinder. As well moisture can condense in, or be drawn into, the barrel, especially when operating in humid conditions or rain, causing rust and corrosion and premature failure of the cylinder.
Last edited:
J_J
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Maybe go this route . A double acting cyl and a log splitter valve. Push lever to dump, and pull lever back for auto return. Maybe less than $150 for valve and cylinder
"Does the motor run when you lower the dump?"
No. It is meant to return by gravity with the fluid returning to the reservoir by the same hose..
"Yes, gravity. But the valve has to let the fluid back to the tank somehow-so when you push the "lower switch" something let that happen-I was just curious if the pump ran during that time".
No, it should return with gravity but the hinges on the hopper are not positioned correctly in relation to the centre of gravity, especially when the hopper is full (see picture ). If the hopper return is started manually (i.e I pull it back down by hand), it lowers OK, but I need to keep my finger on the lower button on the remote as I do so. Presumably a valve opens in the pump to allow the fluid to flow back to the reservoir.
"Can you verify the model number you have?"
JJ asked this question above. It is a STONE Code UD2570, serial number 0109889, which isn't listed on the web site. It occurs to me that the whole hydraulic system was possibly supplied as one unit (pump, cylinder, hoses, etc) in quantity to the manufacturer to fit to the vacuum machine so is a one off -- but I could be wrong.
Very interested to read from Kennyd that the seals are the same in SA and DA cylinders. Learn something new every day! I tried operating the ram with the plug removed and it did not make the slightest difference to the speed.
"Ultimately, I think the cheapest solution will be to talk to Stone and see what it will take to upgrade your pump to operate a DA cylinder-then add the extra hose".
That sounds like good sense. I did speak to Stone's agents here in the UK but I'm afraid I was lost in the techno-speak! From the look of the web site, parts for the pump can be changed according to the function required.
"Seems to me that if it was originally designed to power up and gravity down, then, there is something not working correctly".
Yes, but when the hopper is in the tipped position, it has moved beyond the centre of gravity as you can see in the picture. I think that is the problem. It is bad design. That's why return has to be manually assisted when empty and it is impossible to return manually when full. The hopper stuck in the dump position again today when the contents refused to slide out (horse poo is surprisingly sticky!). I solve the problem as I usually do by putting a hose pipe in the inlet port and going for a cup of coffee! When water logged, the manure usually slides out OK but that method is time consuming and I am getting caffene poisoning!.
"Perhaps someone took out the breather and put a plug in it's place. Take the plug out and see if the cylinder works like it is supposed to. If it works good, put a filtered breather plug in there".
See above in this post. I did that and it made no difference. The machine is brand new so I think it is meant to be like that.
"Maybe go this route . A double acting cyl and a log splitter valve. Push lever to dump, and pull lever back for auto return. Maybe less than $150 for valve and cylinder".
That sounds good. I now have enough information to research this further. I live in a fairly remote location and informed advice is difficult to get. There are three hydraulics shops within 100 miles. Two of these mostly sell stuff off the shelf. The third (the furtherest away) is very good but also very busy so they are not really interested in my small problems!
Thanks a lot, guys. I don't know where I would have got this advice if not here.
No. It is meant to return by gravity with the fluid returning to the reservoir by the same hose..
"Yes, gravity. But the valve has to let the fluid back to the tank somehow-so when you push the "lower switch" something let that happen-I was just curious if the pump ran during that time".
No, it should return with gravity but the hinges on the hopper are not positioned correctly in relation to the centre of gravity, especially when the hopper is full (see picture ). If the hopper return is started manually (i.e I pull it back down by hand), it lowers OK, but I need to keep my finger on the lower button on the remote as I do so. Presumably a valve opens in the pump to allow the fluid to flow back to the reservoir.
"Can you verify the model number you have?"
JJ asked this question above. It is a STONE Code UD2570, serial number 0109889, which isn't listed on the web site. It occurs to me that the whole hydraulic system was possibly supplied as one unit (pump, cylinder, hoses, etc) in quantity to the manufacturer to fit to the vacuum machine so is a one off -- but I could be wrong.
Very interested to read from Kennyd that the seals are the same in SA and DA cylinders. Learn something new every day! I tried operating the ram with the plug removed and it did not make the slightest difference to the speed.
"Ultimately, I think the cheapest solution will be to talk to Stone and see what it will take to upgrade your pump to operate a DA cylinder-then add the extra hose".
That sounds like good sense. I did speak to Stone's agents here in the UK but I'm afraid I was lost in the techno-speak! From the look of the web site, parts for the pump can be changed according to the function required.
"Seems to me that if it was originally designed to power up and gravity down, then, there is something not working correctly".
Yes, but when the hopper is in the tipped position, it has moved beyond the centre of gravity as you can see in the picture. I think that is the problem. It is bad design. That's why return has to be manually assisted when empty and it is impossible to return manually when full. The hopper stuck in the dump position again today when the contents refused to slide out (horse poo is surprisingly sticky!). I solve the problem as I usually do by putting a hose pipe in the inlet port and going for a cup of coffee! When water logged, the manure usually slides out OK but that method is time consuming and I am getting caffene poisoning!.
"Perhaps someone took out the breather and put a plug in it's place. Take the plug out and see if the cylinder works like it is supposed to. If it works good, put a filtered breather plug in there".
See above in this post. I did that and it made no difference. The machine is brand new so I think it is meant to be like that.
"Maybe go this route . A double acting cyl and a log splitter valve. Push lever to dump, and pull lever back for auto return. Maybe less than $150 for valve and cylinder".
That sounds good. I now have enough information to research this further. I live in a fairly remote location and informed advice is difficult to get. There are three hydraulics shops within 100 miles. Two of these mostly sell stuff off the shelf. The third (the furtherest away) is very good but also very busy so they are not really interested in my small problems!
Thanks a lot, guys. I don't know where I would have got this advice if not here.
