sizing tractors/implements

[Egon]

Thinking back 40 years ago:

Sounds like different climate and growning conditions would require different machinery. Each area will naturally evolve to what is best suited to the conditions. As new equipment comes out it will tried. If a lot of it shows up at auctions it means it didn't work.

Number of acres involved is also very important. There should be a sorta break point for different areas where the economics become plausible.

Also to be considered is what the local demand is. The equipment must be suited to meet this demand.

Now as I see it there are no set answers as each situation is independant. When my thoughts turn to farming more horse power and larger equipment and more acres always come to mind as manpower versus time is also a consideration.

Egon

 

[JerryG]

<font color="blue"> Sounds like different climate and growning conditions would require different machinery. </font>
That may be it Egon. CCI said about the down time of the hay is right. We did use a MoCo for several years. This is what we do now. We cut one day with a disc mower and tedder next morning and start baling after lunch or in the early evening.

 

[HayDR]

Richard,
50%+ of the cattle in the USA are owned by farmers/ranchers with 100 acres or less. In Iowa a farmer might farm 2 sections of which most is used in production of row crops. In most of the east we average 4-6 farmers per section (640 acres). In KY, TN, NC, VA, WV in the cattle areas the average is 10-12 farmers per section. These farmers do not raise much if any alfalfa or have 100 HP tractors. They have cow/calf operations and usually have income from other sources. These farmers may raise some extra hay to sell but 80% of them raise a hay crop for their own use. This leaves 20% of the farmers as commercial hay producers. The commercial hay producer has to have as much technology as they can afford. Labor is just not available on a consistent basis anymore and technology and HP must make up the difference.
Horse farms are usually smaller than the cattle farms. These farms may raise some alfalfa, timothy and other legume crops.
Richard fewer farmers each year farm the same way you do. I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong because it is not. The guys on TBN usually have smaller operations than you do. They have less resources and want a feasible way to harvest hay. I know many a farmer that harvested hundreds of acres of hay with a AC-D15, 3000 Ford, MF-135, & 1020 JD. Most of them had square balers in the 1970's and then in the 80's they traded up for 10 more HP in their tractors and purchased round balers. The folks in Iowa do not understand how we farm with 35-60 HP tractors because the smallest tractor they have is an old JD 4020 with 93 HP. MFG & merchants understand orders and sales so they are forced by the market to make products the market needs. Those smaller dollar products are not the bell cows for companies like JD but when combine sales are down JD has learned that the profits from lawn mower sales help the bottomline. JD will sell around 400,000 lawn mowers next year. It is all about matching the proper size equipment to the job.

 

[JerryG]

CCI,
Your description of the farmers, tractor sizes and type of operations, hit the nail on the head. That is exactly the way it is here and the way it was.

 

[HayDR]

cowboydoc,
<font color="blue"> "I agree 100% with what you just said CCI. The 5103 has 65 pto hp. That's 5 less hp than I stated at 70 hp. "</font>
The JD 5103 has 46 PTO HP, Check it out. JD 5103

 

[cowboydoc]

Yes you're right I was thinking of the 5303. I guess if you only had 20 acres of hay to make it would be ok.

 

[HayDR]

Yes, 20-40 acres, two cuttings a year is all many of these cattle owners have. They may be pressed for time so they may purchase drum/disc mowers and V-Rakes to speed up their process. Most of us are so focused our own operations that we do not see how others operate. There really is no wrong way in choosing equipment, but there are advantages and disadvantages for each choice. Matching the equipment to the tractor and the intended use is the key to getting the best choice for one's situation.
If we raised many acres of alfalfa, it would be the thing to do to own a discbine. We sold them 8 years ago because in grass hay the discbine mower conditioner had no advantage over the disc mower and tedder.

 

[cowboydoc]

Why would anyone even invest in equipment for 20-40 acres? You could never make that pay. On 20-40 acres two cuttings a year of grass you are maybe going to get 80 -100 bales off of that on a good year. Even take your lowest price baler which I think is what $13k? It would take 16 years to pay for a baler and that's not even counting the tractor wear and tear or a persons time.

 

[slowrev]

Around here most "real" small farmers buy used equipment. That makes it finiancially feasable. The city folks that move out and buy a small farm and have lots of money buy the new stuff.

 

[jimg]

From the replies so far it sounds like machinery decisions are based on what you have (or don't have) to spend or guessing. While Im sure regional factors do play into the bottom line there must be a rational thought out process for deciding what will get the job done (in the required amt of time) and be profitable. Has anyone done this? If so I'd be interested in details.

 

[cowboydoc]

Jim,

You need to be alot more specific if you want to know if something is going to be profitable. I don't see how you can be profitable buying hay equipment on a 100 acres. Not when you consider your time, unless you like to work for free. Each situation is going to be different. What kind of ground do you have? What is the weather in your area? Are you going to raise grass or alfalfa? What are going to be your input costs? What's the condition of the ground? Has it been hayed before and what was the yield? How much did you pay for the ground? What's the interest? etc. etc. This and a hundred other questions go into the equation. There is just about zero chance of making a 100 acres pay when you consider the cost of the land and the cost of the equipment.

 

[slowzuki]

I think lbs per acre is quite different in different areas. In NB very few farms work more than 100 acres of hay.
Ken

 

[cowboydoc]

Ken,

I completely agree with you that it's different in different areas. Even the best farmground in the country can only grow so much hay though. If you seriously put a pencil to it and had to buy the land, buy the equipment, and pay yourself anything at all for your time it would be pretty tough to show much of a profit even on the best farmground in the country. Very few people make much, if any, kind of a living off of 100 acres, not doing hay or row crops anyway. There are some specialty farming that requires little or no equipment that people make a go of it at, but haying and row crop farming isn't one of them.

 

[HayDR]

cowboydoc,
The calf crop will yield about $20,000, say $5,000 of profit from tobacco. Now the farmer must spend the profit or the IRS will get 50% of it so they will have to purchase something to offset the profits. The tax system needs to be changed so they could save the money.

 

[cowboydoc]

$20,000 from how many calves? You can't run 50 head of cows on 20-40 acres or make enough to feed 50 cow/calf pairs. And then that isn't all profit either. Right now the figure for this year is going to be .88/pound to break even. Of that $20k sales probably only 10-20%, if that, is profit.

I understand what you're saying but nobody is doing it for profit or a living. They all have regular jobs that the farming/ranching is a good tax write-off. It's just something they enjoy doing and nothing wrong with that. Much rather see people buyign tractors and balers than boats. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[HayDR]

At current prices and Angus cross steer or bull 600 Lbs will gross over $500 each. Cows need 3-4 ton of hay per winter and calves need 1 ton. By no-till drilling a grazer Rye in October you can stockpile some extra grass for winter months. We typically run one cow to .80 cow per acre depending on the amount of trees. If a farmer has 100 acres he can run 50-80 head of brood cows. The key is live on a budget, lime your ground 3 ton per acre every 10 years, use 12-24-24 fertilizer on your pastures at 400 Lbs per acre. Spend all the profits you do not need on facility improvements, the IRS will waste if if you send it to them.
One more thing purchase a good tractor, Mine is a JD, take care of it and keep it 10-15 years.

 

[cowboydoc]

All great advice and I agree 100% Mark. A 100 acres I agree you can run 50 head on and probably gross $20k. But not 20-40 acres. I don't about you but I sure wouldn't want to try and raise a family of four on $20 or 25k a year. And after inputs, cattle costs, replacement heifers and bulls, cattle losses, medicine, vet bills, equipment, etc. you'll be lucky to see any profit. I mean even if you figure buying old equipment you're going to have $30k in equipment. 50 cows and 4 or 5 bulls are going to run you $50,000 or more. A 100 acres is at least going to run $150,000-$200,000 and that's pretty cheap land. So you've got $250,000 - $300,000 just to start out. And off of that you're going to gross $20-25k. Net maybe half of that on a really good year. On a bad year you're going to lose that much. And if you've got any of that money borrowed well there's goes all of your profit to the banker. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Nope no matter how a person slices it it's pretty tough to ever make much at it. Do that for 30 years and be broke or put that same money in a low-risk retirement fund and retire a millionaire. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif But it is a great way to live. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[HayDR]

Richard,
Much of this land was in the family and passed on to the next generation. You are forgetting that these farmers usually have 1-2 incomes off the farm. Most of these folks live on a household income of less than $100,000 a year. The key is living debt free and on a budget. I know your malpractice insurance is unreal so is my workers comp. ins., liability ins. not to mention full coverage health insurance for our employees . It doesn't matter how much you make it's how much you spend. Farmers are a resourceful bunch of people.

 

[slowzuki]

I know what cowboydoc is trying to say, to buy land and begin the business of farming you need a lot of land. In NB farm land sells for 750 -1000$ per acre. Even at that price you don't make money buying a farm.

Most farms are at least family owned ie the land is long since paid off and most equipment is paid off. Even if the family doesn't work it themselves it can turn a profit. Many of my friends grew up on farms with low income.

Remember the farm/family truck expenses reduce the apparent income but leaves them with transportation. Also they typically have all the meat they can eat at low cost.

I won't discuss lifestyles as it is not appropriate here.

Commercial animal farms here in the maritimes are 250 acres or less, most being under 100 acres. Potatoe farmers generally work farms in the area of 500 acres. Some mega farms exist on PEI where the law limits the amount of land you can own to 500 or 1000 acres? (Can't rememeber) so they lease at least as much as they own.

Typical hay operations are under 100 acres, it is simply all woods here, it would cost a fortune to put big fields in.

Someone with 100 acres would hay in the summer and log in the winter. I don't know the climate where you are but I visited the praries this summer and our climates are completely different. The grass was thin and they would have 30 cattle on 30 acres of land.

Here in the summer you can leave 30 cattle on 10 acres and barely keep ahead of the grass. My neighbour had 2 draft horses and 2 riding horses on 5 acres and had to bushhog several times. This is all on land that has been unmanaged for at least 10 years.

I think the moisture is the key factor but we also have very long days in the summer, sun up at 5am or so and goes down at 10pm.
Ken

 

[cowboydoc]

"You are forgetting that these farmers usually have 1-2 incomes off the farm."

Actually I mentioned that in a post above. Heck you can't make it just farming anymore. Haven't been for a long time. The banker when I went in to talk to him last told me that to even consider a loan for someone anymore that is just farming they insist that the person has 2500 acres to farm to even realistically be able to keep their head above water.