Egon
Epic Contributor
Pat; the red thing comes in different colours as another poster has shown!
Sled vs. trailer for downhill wood hauling
- Thread starter TomOfTarsus
- Start date
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billbill1
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2004
- Messages
- 1,207
- Location
- Lecompton, Kansas
- Tractor
- 2016 Mahindra 1533 Shuttle AgKing 2840 shuttle shift
With an 18 hp tractor, go to TSC, buy a carryall for $79 and build a box on it to haul your wood back down the slope. You can fill the fel and the carryall and bring a sizeable amount each trip. Would be safer than dragging a sled loaded and probably easier on your tractor.
OP
TomOfTarsus
Silver Member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2008
- Messages
- 219
- Location
- North of Pittsburgh near Airport
- Tractor
- 1999 New Holland TC18 HST
Well, sorry all, was so busy this weekend I haven't had time to check back. So much thanks to so many who've posted with good thoughts and ideas, I''m at work and can't possibly thank each individual.
I got about another hour of seat time on Saturday. I continue to be amazed by the "tipsi-ness" of my machine, I had one rear wheel lift on me and the slope didn't seem that bad. I've been scared a couple of times already and was really taking it easy. Scared me good. I have to see about getting my tires filled, or something - I figure slinging the mower deck underneath might help as well... a little off the subject but related...
That box off the 3 pt hitch is kinda what I had in mind, except that in my mind it would be able to be lowered to ground level and dragged. The log hog looks good as well for getting saw logs down. I'm still trying to determine what the carry-all from TSC is. And it's probably a good idea to put the chains back on the tires.
There's no way I'll go cross-grade with this thing. I'd be on my side in a heartbeat. But I will say it's amazing how much you can do with a dolly, I learned that by hard experience bringing logs down last year.
I have a couple of ideas for improving tilt meters as well, but that Rick's e-mail came back to me undeliverable.
As well, just for giggles, I'll try to get some pictures to give ya'll an idea of how insane I actually am - to actually pay money for land like this, and worse, think that I could drive a tractor on it!
Thanks again!
Tom
I got about another hour of seat time on Saturday. I continue to be amazed by the "tipsi-ness" of my machine, I had one rear wheel lift on me and the slope didn't seem that bad. I've been scared a couple of times already and was really taking it easy. Scared me good. I have to see about getting my tires filled, or something - I figure slinging the mower deck underneath might help as well... a little off the subject but related...
That box off the 3 pt hitch is kinda what I had in mind, except that in my mind it would be able to be lowered to ground level and dragged. The log hog looks good as well for getting saw logs down. I'm still trying to determine what the carry-all from TSC is. And it's probably a good idea to put the chains back on the tires.
There's no way I'll go cross-grade with this thing. I'd be on my side in a heartbeat. But I will say it's amazing how much you can do with a dolly, I learned that by hard experience bringing logs down last year.
I have a couple of ideas for improving tilt meters as well, but that Rick's e-mail came back to me undeliverable.
As well, just for giggles, I'll try to get some pictures to give ya'll an idea of how insane I actually am - to actually pay money for land like this, and worse, think that I could drive a tractor on it!
Thanks again!
Tom
patrick_g
Elite Member
arrow said:
No, taint me, I was sick that day and didn't get in the picture and besides my standard position was up front with the oxen.
Pat
patrick_g
Elite Member
Tom, Be careful man. The difference between having a rear wheel off the ground and being under a tractor is often vanishingly small.
I have had my tractor in every two wheels in the air combination possible and try to not repeat the scarier ones. Front wheels up, no prob in most circumstances, rear wheels up, no prob in most circumstances, opposite diagonal... gets a little puckery but not too bad depending on terrain.
Both wheels on one side... try to avoid that a lot, I mean just try to never go there. Always keep a hand on the joystick if you are moving and have a load on the FEL. NEVER turn the front wheels all the way to lock with a heavy FEL load, especially if you are in motion. If things get dicey get the FEL on the ground - immediately.
Keep that thing right side up so we can enjoy your company and get pix from you successfully bringing home the wood to burn to cook the bacon.
Pat
I have had my tractor in every two wheels in the air combination possible and try to not repeat the scarier ones. Front wheels up, no prob in most circumstances, rear wheels up, no prob in most circumstances, opposite diagonal... gets a little puckery but not too bad depending on terrain.
Both wheels on one side... try to avoid that a lot, I mean just try to never go there. Always keep a hand on the joystick if you are moving and have a load on the FEL. NEVER turn the front wheels all the way to lock with a heavy FEL load, especially if you are in motion. If things get dicey get the FEL on the ground - immediately.
Keep that thing right side up so we can enjoy your company and get pix from you successfully bringing home the wood to burn to cook the bacon.
Pat
OP
TomOfTarsus
Silver Member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2008
- Messages
- 219
- Location
- North of Pittsburgh near Airport
- Tractor
- 1999 New Holland TC18 HST
Thanks, Patrick, believe me, that's my intention! I think the scariest aspect for me, being a newbie, is thinking I am being careful, and then feeling the wheel lift. It's not like I was thinking, "Wow, I'm really getting on to this!" and had let my guard down. I've been bringing new meanings to the term "creeper gear", but you know, having run all over these hills the past 30 years, I think I'm just not seeing 15 degrees when it's there.
And then I'm being a good boy, with my seat belt on and fairly well adjusted, whcih limits how far I can move my piddly self to try to bring it back, but it was enough... sheesh
Does anybody know if NH (or anyone) publishes weight and CG information for the tractors? I could figure it myself but don't have the equipment to weigh each axle, and besides don't know how I'd get the vertical position of the CG anyway. Once I had that, I could "weigh" (heh.. heh... ugh...) the improvements wrought by weights, tire filling, implements, etc. I gotta get that CG down. I already have the rears turned around (swapped left-right) to give me a few extra inches width in the back.
And then I'm being a good boy, with my seat belt on and fairly well adjusted, whcih limits how far I can move my piddly self to try to bring it back, but it was enough... sheesh
Does anybody know if NH (or anyone) publishes weight and CG information for the tractors? I could figure it myself but don't have the equipment to weigh each axle, and besides don't know how I'd get the vertical position of the CG anyway. Once I had that, I could "weigh" (heh.. heh... ugh...) the improvements wrought by weights, tire filling, implements, etc. I gotta get that CG down. I already have the rears turned around (swapped left-right) to give me a few extra inches width in the back.
OP
TomOfTarsus
Silver Member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2008
- Messages
- 219
- Location
- North of Pittsburgh near Airport
- Tractor
- 1999 New Holland TC18 HST
Maybe, but wouldn't some weight in the back (and drag) help a bit? As long as you don't get to where the weight is pushing you...
It seems it'd be hard to keep the bucket on the ground without constant adjustment. "Float" wouldn't work because you'd have no real restraint from the lifting mechanism.
It seems it'd be hard to keep the bucket on the ground without constant adjustment. "Float" wouldn't work because you'd have no real restraint from the lifting mechanism.
patrick_g
Elite Member
Tom, Remember, familiarity breeds contempt. You are familiar with the area and in your head you can scamper all over it. That plus not having the experience to know what is getting toward the edge of the safety/stability envelope can get you into trouble. Go slow, be careful, and live to report back to us how your wood hauling goes.
The CG can be empirically determined, in 3D, but the easiest way I know to do it has some pucker factor involved.
You add several pounds (a known amount like say 100 lbs) to the front axle and raise the front wheels with a hoist or other easily controlled means until there is only 100 lbs of weight pulling down on the front axle. At this time a spring scale capable of measuring 100 lbs when stressed to 100 lbs would just start to raise the front axle more. (We assume the tractor has bilateral symmetry to simplify the problem.) You use safety lines to check the tractors front end and prevent it toppling over backward in case things get out of control.
This establishes one plane that passes through the CG. Next you do the same thing but sideways, raising say the left side up. This establishes a second plane, not parallel to the first, that passes through the CG.
The intersection of the two planes is a line that passes through the CG. Our bilateral symmetry assumption says the CG is in the center of the line or the "middle" of the tractor in the left to right dimension. If the tractor were way heavier on one side the CG would be shifted a little bit toward that side and not exactly in the middle. If your weight is a significant percentage of the tractor weight and or your personal CG (located at about belly button height when standing) is well above the tractor's CG when you are seated on the tractor then you may need to adjust the CG's derived location upward a bit.
Alternatively you can make a construction paper silhouette of the tractor (a blow up of a drawing from the manual or a photo and use it to determine the fore and aft CG location and with the assumption that the CG is on the midline and you are done. This requires you to make an educated guess about the relative density of the tractor at different heights above the ground, with the greatest weight/density being where the most iron is.
There are other ways which do not require you to tip the tractor until is is at the balance point but they are way more math intensive. If you do get motivated and try the first method (balance method) be sure to add significant weight to the front axle so that when the weight left on the front axle is just that added weight the tractor is not so likely to want to roll over. Also use lines to secure the tractor so if there is a mess up the tractor can't fall over on its back. Chock the rear wheels.
The CG question has come up several times and I have never seen a positive response regarding the MFG supplying it. Even if you have a good CG determination you have to realize that in the limit it is only a static determination of when the tractor will roll over. In actual use the tractor represents a dynamic system NOT A STATIC ONE. You could be cruising on a hill side well within what would seem to be the static safety envelope but hit a bump with a rear tire and it could propel you past the edge of the safe envelope into the GUARANTEED TO ROLL OVER part of the chart.
The faster you go the more likely it is that a bump or lump hidden in the grass (maybe a dropped piece of firewood that wasn't there before the last few times you drove through here successfully at a faster speed) and eah haw, you are in ROPS and safety belt testing mode as you roll down the hill, ker thunk ker thunk kekr thunk.
So far as having a lump or rock or piece of wood launch you goes, it is not all that far fetched depending on the static tilt of the tractor and your SPEED where more tilt and or more speed is more likely to launch you into a roll over.
There is virtually no such thing as totally safe tractoring but you can control the risk and avoid doing things that are just too dumb when subjected to analysis. Better to play Russian roulette with a 10,000 shooter than a 6 shooter.
Pat
The CG can be empirically determined, in 3D, but the easiest way I know to do it has some pucker factor involved.
You add several pounds (a known amount like say 100 lbs) to the front axle and raise the front wheels with a hoist or other easily controlled means until there is only 100 lbs of weight pulling down on the front axle. At this time a spring scale capable of measuring 100 lbs when stressed to 100 lbs would just start to raise the front axle more. (We assume the tractor has bilateral symmetry to simplify the problem.) You use safety lines to check the tractors front end and prevent it toppling over backward in case things get out of control.
This establishes one plane that passes through the CG. Next you do the same thing but sideways, raising say the left side up. This establishes a second plane, not parallel to the first, that passes through the CG.
The intersection of the two planes is a line that passes through the CG. Our bilateral symmetry assumption says the CG is in the center of the line or the "middle" of the tractor in the left to right dimension. If the tractor were way heavier on one side the CG would be shifted a little bit toward that side and not exactly in the middle. If your weight is a significant percentage of the tractor weight and or your personal CG (located at about belly button height when standing) is well above the tractor's CG when you are seated on the tractor then you may need to adjust the CG's derived location upward a bit.
Alternatively you can make a construction paper silhouette of the tractor (a blow up of a drawing from the manual or a photo and use it to determine the fore and aft CG location and with the assumption that the CG is on the midline and you are done. This requires you to make an educated guess about the relative density of the tractor at different heights above the ground, with the greatest weight/density being where the most iron is.
There are other ways which do not require you to tip the tractor until is is at the balance point but they are way more math intensive. If you do get motivated and try the first method (balance method) be sure to add significant weight to the front axle so that when the weight left on the front axle is just that added weight the tractor is not so likely to want to roll over. Also use lines to secure the tractor so if there is a mess up the tractor can't fall over on its back. Chock the rear wheels.
The CG question has come up several times and I have never seen a positive response regarding the MFG supplying it. Even if you have a good CG determination you have to realize that in the limit it is only a static determination of when the tractor will roll over. In actual use the tractor represents a dynamic system NOT A STATIC ONE. You could be cruising on a hill side well within what would seem to be the static safety envelope but hit a bump with a rear tire and it could propel you past the edge of the safe envelope into the GUARANTEED TO ROLL OVER part of the chart.
The faster you go the more likely it is that a bump or lump hidden in the grass (maybe a dropped piece of firewood that wasn't there before the last few times you drove through here successfully at a faster speed) and eah haw, you are in ROPS and safety belt testing mode as you roll down the hill, ker thunk ker thunk kekr thunk.
So far as having a lump or rock or piece of wood launch you goes, it is not all that far fetched depending on the static tilt of the tractor and your SPEED where more tilt and or more speed is more likely to launch you into a roll over.
There is virtually no such thing as totally safe tractoring but you can control the risk and avoid doing things that are just too dumb when subjected to analysis. Better to play Russian roulette with a 10,000 shooter than a 6 shooter.
Pat
ccdck20hst
Silver Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2004
- Messages
- 118
- Location
- northwestern connecticut
- Tractor
- 1989 Cub Cadet hydro 13/20, 2004, Kioti CK20HST TLB
Had you considered using a trailer and lowering the trailer by long chain or rope by using a tree and your tractor as an anchor? If the distance traveled is not to long perhaps you could inch the trailer down fully loaded. Although not the best technique for accumulating seat time for safeties sake could you cut the wood up and throw it down the embankment?? I was surprised at how far I could chuck wood into my basement (ten feet or so) just from the outside basement window. From the top of a steep hill throwing wood out in the air ten feet might get it to rol a considerable distance down hill. I would use the tractor going directly up and down the hill here only as a last resort or not at all - but I take darn good care of my tractor and I am not an experienced operator. Be safe.
