So, You think you own your land...

[LMTC]

Well...lovely rant, but companies are nothing more than nonpersonal legal entities the primary purpose of which is to engage in profitable commerce. Companies do not "care", they do not "deceive", nor do they "lie". People do those things. So fuss all you want about companies in any particular industry, but the real issue is the ethics and morals of individual people, and far too many people set their standards on the basis of their ever-changing beliefs, wants, or needs. Unless a person believes in moral absolutes, why would they have anything BUT changing (or situational) ethics? Unless there is one sole source of absolute morals, the different beliefs of different people will still allow for behavoirs that will shock/dismay one group of people or another. Many people (particularly in the US), through groups they form, have devoted much energy and resources the past several decades to discredit and dislodge an absolute moral basis as a belief. I contend that their success so far is the primary reason for behaviors such as you decry.

I hope I've kept this philosophical enough to avoid violating rules about politics and religion.

 

[David Ferguson]

IF all this water being injected is JUST Salt Water, as the RRC and Oil and Gas would like us all to continue believing, I'll ask you this question...When was the last time you heard of just plain salt water exploding and catching fire!!??
QUOTE]

Why just recently (last two months). http://digg.com/environment/Turning_Salt_Water_Into_Fuel

 

[KaiB]

What he said!

LMTC, that was as elegantly said as anything I have read for quite some time.

Odd that the only answer some parties have to reasonable discussion and science is a loud voice, which in most instances, is aimed at the discussor, not the discussion.

 

[riptides]

..... Companies do not "care", they do not "deceive", nor do they "lie". People do those things. So fuss all you want about companies in any particular industry, but the real issue is the ethics and morals of individual people, and far too many people set their standards on the basis of their ever-changing beliefs, wants, or needs....

Companies are run by people. Get enough people with the same mindset and you have power. Boards can be influenced, can be told deceit, tidbits of information that skirt the truth...etc.etc.

Enron comes to mind.

-Mike Z.

 

[LMTC]

Companies are run by people. Get enough people with the same mindset and you have power. Boards can be influenced, can be told deceit, tidbits of information that skirt the truth...etc.etc.

Enron comes to mind.

-Mike Z.

I never said there wasn't power in groups of people. My point was to recognize that it is STILL JUST PEOPLE. Not some anonymous "they", or "Big Oil", or whatever. If you want to impact that power, you do better to understand it's origins and it's motives than to simply rant against it or even try to go headfirst into it with more power. And my further point was, and remains, a lot of this--maybe most of this--has to do with the ethics and morals of those PEOPLE. And then we examine where those come from, and we come to realize that without a singular source of absolute, consistent, unchanging morality, people's actions will be guided most often by situational ethics. For me, and many others, that source of absolute, consistent, unchanging morality comes from something that can't be discussed per the forum rules.

Now if anyone prefers to just fuss and fume, it is certainly their prerogative. I remain convinced that the means of change begins with the source (or lack of same) of people's morals (and I mean this in the larger sense of ethics, not just the sense that "moral" and "immoral" is used commonly today re: carnal things).

How many of you (rhetorical question here, please do not answer publicly) have taken a $$ loss, or a personal loss, or job loss, or promotion loss in order to maintain an ethical position on some issue(s)? Conversely, have you EVER compromised what you know or believe to be ultimately right/just/ethical to save or get something you wanted or owned? To make a few $$? For any other reason? If you have, how are the people making decisions in these companies any different than you? There are no little or big wrongs in pure ethics. Some acts may have different punishments in the law of the land, but if there is an absolute source of morality then any wrong is a violation of it. There are no degrees.

I truly am not trying to lecture anyone here, rather to clarify some things I think may be being overlooked. I will tell you candidly that I would have to answer some of my second set of questions "yes." It's been a long time, but I have done so. I hope and intend to never do so again. Recognize that the morality of any group of people comes from the individuals in it. Change the basis for those morals and you change the behavior. Change the laws and you only change the methods which some people use to get around them.

 

[cp1969]

There are no little or big wrongs in pure ethics. Some acts may have different punishments in the law of the land, but if there is an absolute source of morality then any wrong is a violation of it. There are no degrees.

I will tell you candidly that I would have to answer some of my second set of questions "yes." It's been a long time, but I have done so. I hope and intend to never do so again.

OK, I agree with the logic and admire your desire to act ethically, but the next time your wife asks a question such as, "Do you think this dress makes me look fat?" how are you going to answer?

 

[LMTC]

You're mixing issues. Absolute truthfulness is not equivalent to being absolutely ethical. If your breath smells like a sewer and you ask me "Is my breath bad today?", am I acting unethically if I say, "CP, it's a little on the rough side. Can I offer you a stick of gum?". Are you suggesting I need to say "CP your breath is unequivocally horrendous"? Ethics is about behaviors and actions AND their consequences. One's ethics come from one's core beliefs/values.

And to answer your question, if I thought the dress creates an appearance that will be unflattering to my wife, yes I would tell her so. She would never ask "Do you think this dress makes me look fat." She might ask "Whaddya think? OK, not OK, or somewhere in between?"

To further illustrate my point, I am in a nearly deserted part of town and a child runs past saying "Please don't tell, the man is going to kill me." Two minutes later a man runs up and says, "Did you see a child run by here? I'm trying to find him so I can kill him." Now is it unethical to not tell that man the absolute truth? Of course not. That is why your example really is not valid.

 

[Unclebuck257]

What he said!

LMTC, that was as elegantly said as anything I have read for quite some time.

Odd that the only answer some parties have to reasonable discussion and science is a loud voice, which in most instances, is aimed at the discussor, not the discussion.

Be assured KaiB that my last post was not just a loud voice or rant, and it was definitely part of the discussion in this thread, since that discussion is about oil and gas exploration on a person's land. Injection wells are definitely a big part of oil and gas exploration, a very big part that they don't want the public to know the truth about too. Rather than a "loud voice" as you call it, it was a list of truths that I know to be fact because I lived through most of it myself. Important truths, that you seem to want to make seem somehow unimportant with your little quips!

You are correct that, in part, it was aimed at you because of your post and the attitude you seemed to project in that post, since you appear determined to try and convince others that some of the facts I've stated are unimportant or non serious. I especially liked your Benzene comments! I'm curious, just what part of the oil and gas industry do you work for?

Instead of making what you apparently consider your cute little quips, why don't you refute what I've said and prove the facts I've stated as false. The reason is because you can't and everything I've stated is on the record and fact. Anyone in here can research any of the particular places and instances I've mentioned, on line. How about you proving me wrong in the same way!


LMTC,

You'd be the man I'd want on my team if I was going into a philosophical debate, but unfortunately here in Texas, all the oil and gas problems being discussed in this thread are a reality and hitting a lot of us rural land and home owners right smack in the face. It's OK I guess to live in Ohio and be a Philosopher on a problem subject in another part of the country, but it's entirely different to have that problem hanging over your head on a daily basis. A problem I might add, that can destroy everything you've worked your entire life for, due to someone else's total disregard for everything you hold dear and their own greed!

We ( the citizens of Texas ) will change it alright, and we'll do it in a rather rapid fashion, over the next few years, through the major power the citizens have. We're already changing the situation for the better, by standing up and fighting and not buying into that garbage that "you can't beat oil and gas because they have all the money". One small group of 44 has already turned into literally thousands, all over North Texas. More and more truth keeps coming out to people that did not know the truth previously. More and more are being educated weekly, through newspaper articles, TV news stories and magazine articles. Those smaller groups of people all over Texas, will be one large group of Texans, statewide, before too long too.

 

[LMTC]

UncleBuck,
In no way did I mean to imply that you should sit around and simply contemplate the issue. My response was not an attempt to criticize any organized coherent action plan. It was simply an attempt to point out that in the longer run/bigger picture it would benefit us all to be acutely aware of how things get like this....why people do or don't do things. In fact, the last paragraph of your last post clearly states that this is how you expect to get change....by making people aware of some things in the hopes of effecting their behaviors (becoming politically vocal, etc.).

I don't sit around in Ohio and philosophize, but I do try to think about issues in terms beyond the immediate. If a freight train is bearing down on you...or someone you can help....obviously you have to act. But wouldn't it be good, once the crisis is met, to think about what caused it and what might be done to avert another? Often that involves how and why people do what they do.

Your earlier post did cause me concern because it sounded (to me) as if you were criticizing "big money" and oil and gas companies. There is nothing inherently wrong with any of those things. What is wrong is the things people do....in the case you reference, the people who determine policy, etc. in a particular company. I wish you well. I am a HUGE fan of private property rights. I am also a huge fan of putting blame where blame belongs, and not on some term designed to generate emotion. Every time I hear "big oil" or "big tobacco" I immediately think "yeah or 'big media' and 'big so-called public organization living on taxpayer money'."

Good luck in getting a fair resolution.

 

[KaiB]

I am an Environmental Consultant. A bio-chemist with a minor in math, I do my best to use science to guide my actions and decisions.

I'm am the guy who gets called in to examine the "mess", do the risk assessments, work with the regulatory agencies, and clean up the mess if necessary. I've been doing this for quite some time and am told I'm good at it.

Having gone toe to toe with County, State and Federal agencies, property owners and industry, I have a fair idea of the issues involved.

I'd be glad to discuss benzene all day long. When one refers to "those toxic fluids" and "toxic waste" without quantifing chemical levels, the location of those constituents, and the possibile future fate and transport of same, all one does is reduce the discussion to hysteria.

I have no dog in the hunt at all; I just go where the numbers take me.