Solar radiant Heat

   / Solar radiant Heat #11  
I chose the glass tubes because, after talking to several installers and homeowners, they worked better than the flat panel collectors.
I found many people who disliked the glass tubes also. It seemed like it was allot like the regular oil vs. synthetic "debate".
In the end I chose the glass tubes but my neighbor has a flat panel system that's still working from the 70's.
The thing that amazes me is the glass tube collectors will even make hot water on a cloudy day.
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #12  
RichNJKubota said:
I chose the glass tubes because, after talking to several installers and homeowners, they worked better than the flat panel collectors.
I found many people who disliked the glass tubes also. It seemed like it was allot like the regular oil vs. synthetic "debate".
In the end I chose the glass tubes but my neighbor has a flat panel system that's still working from the 70's.
The thing that amazes me is the glass tube collectors will even make hot water on a cloudy day.

That is the beauty of the evacuated glass tubes, they will heat water, only slower, on a cloudy day. Because of the convection and conduction thermal losses with an air filled panel, it produces very little heat on a cloudy day. The collector in a vacume has none of these losses, only radiation losses, and if you are continually pulling heat out of the inner conductor into the water system, the radiation losses will are minimal.

The biggest advantage of radiant heat is that it slows the vertical heat transfer. radiant heat does not heat as much air. Baseboard and central air heating heat air and try and fill the room with this warm air for comfort. Because of the small surface area of the radiator surface around the tube, they need that higher boiler temp to heat air at a reasonable rate. They have all those fins to help enhance that process but they have to move a lot of air thru the fins to be effective. Because of density, that heated air from this or central air furnaces rises and transfers it's heat to the walls and ceiling, which conduct it away to the outside. That is why the attic insulation makes such a big difference.

Radiant heating is like walking past a brick wall that has been in the afternoon sun, just after the sun goes down. You can feel the heat against your skin. How is the heat getting to you? Thru direct radiation... It is heating air also, which is immediatly rising, but because of laminar flow, it is not heating very much air, just a thin layer along the surface. The air closest to the wall absorbs heat, but it then acts like water in a wetsuit as it travels up the wall and provides insulation.

This is a problem in heat exchangers and air heating elements that engineers work hard to overcome by designing in turbulators to mix up the fluid and break up laminar flow. With turbulence, more fluid is exposed to the hot surface and more heat is transfered faster at lower temp differences. A warm floor will warm the air in contact with it, but this is a far slower process than a baseboard heater as the flooring or carpet is not a good heat transfer medium. It is also heating the coldest air in the room. If the floor is warm it will radiate heat like the brick wall, and objects or people in the room will absorb this radiation and be warmed. That sun warmed wall I described earlier is probably only around 100F-105F, but your exposed skin can sense the heat for several feet. If it is a cool calm evening without a breeze to chill your skin, you can feel the heat for quite a distance.
 
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   / Solar radiant Heat #13  
I don't want to steer away from the op's solar project which I think is great project. I tend to agree with Edie and think store bought solar panels are very expensive and the payback is much too long to make it a feasible investment. Adding more insulation where possible should be the first step to saving energy. Building your own panels is the only way to make a solar project financially feasible for most of us.

Having said that, I too am also thinking of building a few solar hot air collectors this year. I want to build collectors similar to the one in the picture below. Aluminum pop cans painted black is the heat collector in this design which I got from the following link. the Otherpower.com Discussion Board || Solar Air Heater - Pop can heater there are a number of other similar designs on-line. This design is suppose to generate up to 200 btus per sq foot per hour in full sun. Less in partial sun. Should come very close to a one year payback. Biggest problem with this type of solar collector is you can not store the heat for night use.

Now if you can read Hungarian and like this design you should take a look at the detailed design steps in this guys site: sörösló by sztgyi


Dcp_1856.JPG



Dcp_1859.JPG


Dcp_1870.JPG
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #14  
Phil, that is the one. I am really wanting a passive system for heat, but that will have to be a long term goal. Did a total gut on my 102 year old farm house 4 years ago, and didn't even consider using radiant floor heat at the time. Costly mistake, and I should have put low voltage wiring in for lighting, and used solar panels, batteries, and a wind mill for lighting. Electric from the Rural Electric Coop went up 25% April 1st. Next big project will be rain water collection for watering the cattle. Hope to have it done by late fall.
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #15  
EddieWalker said:
I've been thinking of either replacing my water heater with propane, or adding a loop that will pre-heat the water going into my water heater. The pre-heating method would be the cheapest, but so far I'm still stalling on trying this.


I would look real hard at the seasonal price of propane in your area. Last November we were hitting $2.62/gallon and I am thinking prices will be more like $3/gallon here this winter if not higher. I switched from propane to wood pellets for heat as they are about 45% the cost of propane on a btu to btu basis.

I would love to put in solar water heating for hot water or at least pre-heat in the winter. "Idaho lets you take a personal tax deduction of 40% of the cost of a solar system on your residence in the first year that the system is installed and an additional 20% a year for three years thereafter. The maximum deduction in any one year is $5,000. Total maximum deduction is $20,000." I _believe_ that includes solar thermal as well as solar electric. That would go a long way to recouping costs from the system. Unfortunately due to a couple of issues I am not likely to move ahead any time soon.
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #16  
My problem I have is money, or shall I say the lack thereof. I own my own house (my dad left me the house and property when he past away - built in 1845) and with the high cost of home heating oil (2 weeks ago Irving Oil was asking $4.899/gal) and I use 810 gallans per year...coupled the high taxes here in NH, I have nothing left to attempt an alternative heating system. I have no choice but dole out nearly $4,000.00 in heating oil this year. I have heard through the grapevine that the "experts" believe the price of heating oil will be at or near $7.00/gal next year. If it does, I don't know what I'll do. And, I hear absolutely no solutions coming from our "leaders" in Washington, DC, whether they be Democrat, Republican, Independant...everyone is quiet on this issue. I don't understand. I'm off my bandwagon now. Roger
 
   / Solar radiant Heat
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Wow! allot of great input here.
Here is the link to the solar shed. SolarShed

It a good read on what you can do yourself.
On the same site there is a project where the guy ran a pipe from the attic space. I believe a 4" PVC pipe with a small thermostatic fan would blow the heat from that space to the basement. I plan on trying this as well. I do know that my attic power vent does run on some days in the winter.

Phil
 
   / Solar radiant Heat
  • Thread Starter
#18  
Back to more pictures.
The trench had about 60' of gravel and 10' of clay.
100_1849.jpg 100_1850.jpg

I used wood boiler pipe.
The first plan was to cut 2' thick foam and dado to lay in 2 1" type m copper pipes and then cap with 2' pink foam and back fill. I had a concern if ever a leak that I would have to dig it up.
The boiler pipe is 2 1" pex triple foil wrapped and in the corrugated non perfed pipe.
100_1852.jpg
18" above that I put a 1/2" pvc pipe for the panel thermostat wire.
The last pic is the auger that I use to put the sonotube in for the panel structure. the holes are placed 12' on center using the orientation from the study.
100_1853.jpg

I did originally plan on putting the panels on the roof but the angle was not optimal.
Phil
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #19  
My pipe run is about 70 feet also. Most of it being in the house and then a short 25' trench outside. The best thing about the solar hot water is that it just works. Nothing to maintain so far and it's so simple it will probably last many many years.
How big is the collector? How many footings?
Will you be using a glycol solution for the loop out to the collectors or a drain back system where the water in the collectors drains back into the house when the pump turns off?
 
   / Solar radiant Heat
  • Thread Starter
#20  
RichNJKubota,
How big is the collector? How many footings?
Will you be using a glycol solution for the loop out to the collectors or a drain back system where the water in the collectors drains back into the house when the pump turns off?07-14-2008 05:23 PM
I will be using 3 panels 47-1/4" x 95-1/4"
2 footings 1 frame details to follow. The plan is a closed loop with glycol.

Here are some pictures of last weekends work.
100_1858.jpg100_1860.jpg100_1861.jpg
100_1864.jpg100_1866.jpg100_1867.jpg
The steel prep, I know everyone likes to see welds this was done with a Lincoln 125 .023 wire and stargon gas.
the assembly and paint crew.
Last but not least the frame cemented into the sonotubes.
The steel verticals are 4x4"x3/16" and the angle is 60deg.
the horizontals are 3x3"x3/16" sq tube.
Height to the bottom of the frame is 5' and we set this inplace
with the fel on the 1260:D
Bonus was the 1260 has reached 400hrs.:D :D
 

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