SOME PTO QUESTIONS

[wolftree]

I will be looking for a used compact tractor in the future and I have a few questions about PTO on the comapcts.

1) What is the easiest way to determine if a tractor has a truly "LIVE" rear PTO. The owner or salesman may tell me it does, how can I physically test to be sure. Would pushing clucth in half way, stopping the rear wheels, tell me?

2) Are midmount PTOs "LIVE /INDEPENDENT"?

I mentioned to one new tractor salesman that his brand tractor in the size I was looking at did not have "LIVE" REAR PTO even as an option. His reply was that they (Brand un-named) believed in the "OLD WAYS" for reliability. This told me he did not have a clue about operating a tractor in the field and had never been shoved into a tree or fence by a transmission PTO. Am I missing something or are all the compact tractor manufacturers trying to get by cheap and shove us into trees?

I am trying to stay under 30 HP for a compact Utility tractor, but if I have to go that size in order to get LIVE PTO I will.

 

[Soundguy]

shoving into a tree is an operator error for not using an over running coupler on a tractor with a transmission pto.. not a machine fault.

as to your question.. if a machine has a dual stage clutch, you can engage the pto and then put in gear and get traveling.. push clutch and feel if it has a mid point that stops you.. if so.. gander back and see if the pto is spinning.. if it's a mid point.. it probbaly is.

there is also the possibility of a independednt pto that, depending on the design, may be fully independent of the foot clutch.. there are a couple exceptions.. in that I have seen a hydro trans machine with ind pto.. but DID have a foot clutch.. the foot clutch kileld the trans and pto.. otherwise without touching the foot clutch.. the machine behaved like any other ind pto tractor..e tc.

 

[mangus580]

Interesting enough, my new LS R3039 has 'both'.

Being an electronically activated PTO, the put a selector switch in the dash. In one mode, its a live - independent PTO, and runs as long as the switch is on. The other mode, Runs as long as the clutch is released and the switch is on.

Now, one may ask why would you want the second mode?? But I like the concept, as someone who spent years on old farmalls mowing, my first reaction when the mower hits something is to stab the clutch to stop the mower :-D

 

[DAD1220]

Best test yet and easy...have the dealer/seller start the tractor and show you the pto can turn while sitting still! You can figure out how to do it later as each manufacturer will be a little different. You can get this under 30hp easily.

On a Ford or New Holland HST, you have to use the clutch to make changes (pto on, pto off), but can have the tractor drive in neutral and the pto's on or off. Say you want to run a stationary implement like a chipper or generator, brake set, drive in neutral, pto on, brake set. Remember that brake set part...

 

[wolftree]

Soundguy, You are correct. The responsibilty rests on the operator. That is why I am seeking a true test of "LIVE" PTO, so I can find the tractor I seek. Like mangus580, I spent many hours on and worse, behind, transmission PTO Farmalls baling hay and operating implements to know I DO NOT want that ever again. It was fine in 1952, but unacceptable to me now. Even the over running clutch is a poor substitute.

I am a right leg-above-the-knee amputee, thus the new hydro transmissions with the right foot operation for forward and reverse are not an option. Trying to feather the foot control with my right wooden leg does not work very good.

 

[mangus580]

wolftree, most newer CUT's should have a live PTO.

The simplest test is to have someone on the tractor holding the clutch in, with the PTO on. It should spin at that point.

This model from LS would fit your criteria for size, but I think its Hydro...

LS Tractor USA

This one is just over 30 HP (33hp engine rating) and is a gear for sure.

LS Tractor USA

And this one is a 39hp engine rating, but about the same physical size as the one above, and has many more features (which is why thats what i bought)

LS Tractor USA


All three of them have a live pto.

 

[wolftree]

mangus580, I agree, the LS tractors are impressive. My wallet does not like any new tractors though. So that is why I am searching for a reliable method of checking a used tractor for live PTO quickly. I am looking mostly at 1980s era John Deere 650,750 through 690, 790. Ford 1510, 1710 through 1520,1720. Once I figure out Kubotas numbering system I will be looking there as well.

All the American tractor companies were jumping into the Compact utility tractor sizing then, some were getting them right, some not so well.

 

[Soundguy]

my old 1920 ford was dual clutch.. I suspect the 20 series are.

mangus580, I agree, the LS tractors are impressive. My wallet does not like any new tractors though. So that is why I am searching for a reliable method of checking a used tractor for live PTO quickly. I am looking mostly at 1980s era John Deere 650,750 through 690, 790. Ford 1510, 1710 through 1520,1720. Once I figure out Kubotas numbering system I will be looking there as well.

All the American tractor companies were jumping into the Compact utility tractor sizing then, some were getting them right, some not so well.

 

[Soundguy]

Best test yet and easy...have the dealer/seller start the tractor and show you the pto can turn while sitting still!

Best test of what?

my 1946 ford 2n pto will spin with the tractor setting still. so will my old IH CUB, farmall C, Case VAC, and every other old tractor I have from the 30's and up.

are you assuming that because the transmission is not in gear, but rather in neutral, that that means that the input shaft of the tranny is not spinning.. and other parts of the tranny.. like a countershaft are not spinning, and that a pto shaft can't spin while the machine is in neutral?? sounds like you are thinking about GROUND SPEED PTO, a special PTO setup that ties the pto speed with the drivetrain. That is a -*MUCH*- less common setup than plain old non live pto trannies like many, many, many older tractors have.

soundguy

 

[RaydaKub]

Best test of what?

soundguy

Exactly. I have seen a number of older tractors that the pto spins as soon as you start the engine. There's no power applied, it just spins due to the hydraulic fluid sloshing around. You can stop them with one hand easily. The trick is knowing whether this is the case or not. And no, I'm not recommending this as a method to find out.

 

[Soundguy]

Exactly. I have seen a number of older tractors that the pto spins as soon as you start the engine. There's no power applied, it just spins due to the hydraulic fluid sloshing around. You can stop them with one hand easily. The trick is knowing whether this is the case or not. And no, I'm not recommending this as a method to find out.

besides the oil coupling.. most older single stage clutch trans pto systems can operate their pto JUST FINE, powered, etc, with t he machine setting still.

think about a trctro running a feedmill, saw, power generator, stationary bailer.. etc. those are all examples of a tractor running, pto engaged and turning under power, tranny in neutral... no tractro movement.

that's more the rule.. not the exception.

 

[wolftree]

Soundguy, I think "live" pto was an option, not standard on 20 series Fords as well as most Compact tractors of the era. But I may be wrong.

Certainly for my "test" I will need another person to operate the tractor while I observe the shaft.

Let me know if you feel this is correct and a valid test.

With the engine running, the operator pushes clutch in, engages both pto and transmission, then partially lets clutch out. The PTO shaft rotates, but no forward motion of tractor.

This is the whole reason for "live" PTO, to stop forward motion, while allowing the baler/mower to chew through a load of hay/grass or other load.

 

[Soundguy]

your pto test would be correct for a properly working 2 stage clutch.

as for the 20 series. i believe , at least the 1920 only came as a shuttle 12x12 or as a 12x4 both live..e tc. RickB could verify this however though.

 

[wolftree]

Soundguy,

I will be looking for a 1920 Ford as well then.

Thanks for verifying my testing method, short of hooking up a baler or mower, I could come up with no better means.

 

[Soundguy]

good luck.

a 1920 is an awesome tractor.. I regret trading mine...

 

[wolftree]

Soundguy,

I nearly bought either a Ford 1720 or 1920 years ago new. I instead found a low hour International 444 utility. I was farming 50 acres of hay and pasture for cattle and horses. The 444 was better suited for hay baler work then. I still remain impressed by the 10 and 20 series Fords.

I had a John Deere "G" and a Farmall "A" for my secondary tractors.

 

[Soundguy]

I have a farmall C.. cute lil thing. I had my 44 H out today dragging my pasture with it.

 

[wolftree]

I usually used the Farmall "A" to pull the ground drive manure spreader. I had to always be sure and make my first pass on top of the ridgeline and not at the bottom. It did not have the power to pull a near full load up the hill. I could have used a "Super A" and it's 4 extra horse power.

The "A" had PTO, almost a rarity and certainly an expensive option for the time.

 

[Soundguy]

my back and hip are now paying for bouncing around on the H yesterday....

 

[wolftree]

Soundguy,

When I was young and stupid, I used to think power steering, adjustable cushioned seats, live hydraulics and pto was for sissies until I drove a then new International Harvester 656. That has become the standard I measure all tractors against since then. Some have equalled it, few have surpassed it.

Drive your recliner until back and hip feel better.