Spend my money on a welder.

[BlacknTan]

I won't make a recommendation either way... I was not a welder by trade, but we had many certified high vacuum welders where I spent my career, and many of them are friends.
On the job, they all used Miller equipment, and in their own personal garages and workshops (one of them builds chassis' for NASCAR Modifieds), they all have Miller equipment or a Tombstone, and usually at least some of each..
That tells me alot...

I won't bash the Chinese welders... I know nothing about them, and neither do my friends who are "in the know"

That also tells me alot!

Personally, I'd like to keep as many American jobs for Americans as possible..

 

[rjmack]

i have been welding for decades, and now work in the alberta oil sands.

never seen an everlast welding machine in my life.

miller is the world leader in the field of converting alternating current to usable dc current and builds more welding machines than any one else on earth, i simply don't buy the line that the chinese are ahead of them technology wise. at best they may have been reverse engineering/stealing miller's technology.

lincoln is the world leader in dc generators, and supplies virtually ALL the 6010 used in stick welding the root bead for mild steel 'carbon' pipe. lincoln 5p+ is the best rod going, and there simply are no qualified competitors. it is supplied on every job, regardless of contractor. btw, there is a reason 6011 is not used.

when it comes to offshore suppliers for lincoln or miller machines, at least miller and lincoln will be there in the future, and they will be responsible.

as far as the argument that miller or lincoln are not too big to go under? ridiculous. they are profitable enterprises that build quality products and have maintained that reputation over the long term.

some people have consistently stated that chinese/offshore products are good quality.

99% of everything offshore that i have ever bought is outright junk, though there may be some exceptions... don't count on it.

i use the rule of thumb, if you plug it in... miller. if you start it up... lincoln.

 

[rhett]

Hurmm,

I am 100% shure political matters are frowned upon here at TBN. Hard to get away from it because of emotions, all the while the story always leads to nowhere, Politics.

 

[yomax4]

At any givin time there are 600 - 900 Inverter Power Supplies in IRAQ and Afganistan being used for various reasons by our Military..Suprise Suprise none of them are Lincoln or Miller. After testing, Our US Military chose Thermal Arc... Testing was done at Naassco Shipyard in San Diego. The shipyard has 3000 Thermal Arc units mostly all inverters. Not trying to stir the soup but Miller and Lincoln are not alone in the welding world.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

And, Yomax,
Those foreign made TA's you have will outweld the competition....I know. I have tried them. Miller has nowhere near as advanced machines as TA does...that's for sure.

Not bad for products made in austria, malaysia and china...

Scooby,

I will add that we have had guys from Miller, Thermal Arc, Lincoln, and ESAB pour over our machines and are dumbfounded at the construction and quality of components we are using. They also cannot believe the performance. Of course, some would say that I am making it up, but its the truth. And though I can't tell you the names, there are major companies taking a look at Everlast products.

IF anyone would doubt the welding ability of our machines, Jody Collier on welding tips and tricks.com has done some very good videos discussing the features of our products and demonstrates the high quality performance that he gets out of them. Not bad for a guy with the top rated videos and welding information website out there. He teaches welding for Delta Airlines, and he don't put up with no junk. He saw them at a show and thought enough to buy one.

You can see one of the several videos he did here:Tig Welding Equipment knobs and Buttons for Pulse
follow to the next pages for the other ones.

RJMACK,

Visit a few oil platforms, and you might trip over our units, since I know we have one company that has been buying our units now for a year and putting them in service from the gulf to Nigeria. I myself have sold quite a few units to pipe guys in TX and LA. Most of them quite seasoned veterans of the pipelining industry.

We sold over 10k units in the us alone now and working on 15k. Not a lot, but still a respectable amount, considering the 5 years we have been in business.

Welder sales are just like tractor sales, there are pockets of different colors throughout the country. Some places people will swear to you that one brand is the best, because of xyz reasons. Go some where else and that color will be disdained and another one favored, for the same or different reasons. Just because people haven't seen them, doesn't mean they aren't being sold. In fact our units are currently being marketed in Central and South America, the carribian, Canada, Russia, and a few other countries. We have just expanded our facilities and are adding additional staff.

Also, most people have absolutely no idea how far advanced the Chinese products are out there. A lot of the refusal to believe comes from the same prejudices that said Japan would never have a quality product, and later, S Korea. There are copy cat Chinese products out there to be sure, but the country has its own giants that will dwarf our US based companies on size, lineup, and volume in many respects....Don't forget that is a fast growing country with 1.5 billion people and welders are everywhere, our country is only a fraction of the size, and the export market the chinese has in quality welding products is enormous as well....These chinese companies hold their own patents and research facilities, many times partnering with universities, just as our seed companies in the US do with government plant breeders. Don't be fooled by what you here and see, because experience can sometimes teach you wrong.


I have some "classified" photos in my computer of a new unit from one of our factories that is well beyond any product Miller has now by at least ten years at Miller's current rate of development, including weld quality. I get to test the prototypes and I can tell you that the quality is there. We have electronics engineers on staff that tell me that they are as solid built as they could be.

 

[4shorts]

I have some "classified" photos in my computer of a new unit from one of our factories that is well beyond any product Miller has now by at least ten years at Miller's current rate of development, including weld quality. I get to test the prototypes and I can tell you that the quality is there. We have electronics engineers on staff that tell me that they are as solid built as they could be.

Mark, Mark, Mark that's a pretty large statement to make. "well beyond any product Miller has now by at least ten years at Miller's current rate of development". How do you know what Miller has in it's development right now? Maybe there development department has something coming that's 20 years ahead of yours

I like to support the new guy on the block BUT if it's done by putting down a competitor I back away. I've used the American built Miller equipment for years in my shop and NEVER had a problem with any of it. I can and have resold all of it on one or two phone calls to upgrade to the latest technology Miller has to offer and just this year I purchased four new Miller products.

As for Millers welding quality. I find it hard to believe your present or future machines would weld better than Millers. Might be as good but not better.

As for Jody Collier on welding tips and tricks.com . They have both my Miller trailer and Tig cart on there site and give it very flattering reviews but I don't consider it better than anyone else's cart or trailer. I feel it's best to fit my needs and they happen to like it but it's not everyone's flavor.

Wish you were here on my end of the world. We could have a little competition comparing both the Miller and your product together. That would be very interesting I'm sure

 

[yomax4]

As everyone knows, Miller is the benchmark by which most all welders are judged. All that is really being said in this thread is that there is a massive evoulution going on in the welding world. Welders have stayed the same for the last 50 years and now they will change rapidly. Miller has the lead with marketing and continuous new product releases. Most of the new units are good. However Miller is only marginal with the line of pulse mig options. High failure rate and they don't even offer a Twin Pulse unit. I bet they are working on one as I type. In the next 5 years you will see Pulse as being the norm and a dozen other companies will offer welders. It will be difficult to research them all but many will and do offer high tech high quality machines at unheard of prices. I and you are seeing it now. Welding Supply distributors are tired of competing against each other with the same products. Mainly Miller and Lincoln. It becomes a low margin game and they make no money selling them. All accross the country Distributors are looking at different welding equipment to sell that will bring the margins back. It's happening and us smaller manufacturers are getting a hard look not only because of price but because of machine options and warranty. Like I said before, Miller is the benchmark and if I / We have equipment to sell we need to offer more for less and we do in many or most cases. 5 years from now there wont be a top 2 like Lincoln and Miller, There will be a top 5. In ten years there will be a top 10. You will say, I remember when Lincoln and Miller were the only 2 that everyone bought. Not to bash our usa welders but in Europ, Lincoln and Miller are considered marginal quality compared to what is available there. Much like the technology difference between a Harley and a BMW.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

4shorts,

I agree, I don't know for sure what they have, but I said " at the current rate of development" meaning at the rate of advancements that they HAVE BEEN making over the past few years, adding a feature here or there, and giving a jockeying around with the amperage, instead of radically new product. I was trying to make my analogy of what is out there now, available and looking at Millers rate of change and introduction of truly new models from the past. I cannot tell you what they have on the drawing boards. But I do know that we do not sell everything that our factory has available, because the market isn't ready of it here yet, we are WAITING on Miller to make some advancements so we can put our product in at a competitive price. Our products that we have ready to go far exceed anything Miller has, but would not sell because they would be over the price of a Miller unit that is currently available. And as people here demonstrate, many are not ready to digest that sort of advancement. They'd curl up in the fetal position and suck their thumbs... But when and if Miller or Lincoln comes out with this type technology, then our prices will be lower than theirs in comparision.And we'd be stuck with inventory... If you want to see a side by side comparison, come to fabtech in November in Atlanta, where you can go back and forth watching, using and seeing the products on the market. I will not put down their product. If you read, I have never said they were bad, insufficient or even close. They are a good company...a standard to be compared to and against. But when product 1 is compared to product and product 1 is found to be as good as or better than product 2, it goes against logic to draw the conclusion that someone is saying product 2 is inherently bad. That's a large leap. Both may be good, with one still being better than the other. These are relative comparisons of performance and features, and should not be construed as good vs bad comparisons. Please don't misunderstand my comparisons as me some how putting down a larger well established company like Miller. But if I feel a product is as good as or better than another company, I will say so. I have sent customers to Miller, Lincoln, ESAB, and Thermal Arc when I felt their product was able to meet their demands better than what I have to offer. I will also say, I know that in blind welding tests, that our factories have conducted across the world, Miller and Lincoln products have been rated lower in many respects. Basically in those tests, the welders are covered or hidden and the tester only has to look at the performance and quality of the welding arc.

I have had many pro guys willing to take a risk on something new that have been a die hard Miller or Lincoln user, but wanted a "backup" unit or needed an extra machine, or theirs died and ours was cheaper to buy than fix their old unit. I have heard consistently that our units provide a smoother, more stable weld. Having welded for over 25 years, trained on Miller, Lincoln, and own Lincoln and ESAB myself, I do feel that they do.

There are legitimate questions about lifespan etc...But they are being answered with every breath the company has breathed over the past 5 years. Our IGBT product line is coming to the end of its second year now and it they are being pounded. A problem here or there, sure, but Blue and Red have them as well. We are a positively growing company and still a small fish in many respects. But our pulse tig units have shaken up the market and provided competition at a price that wasn't previously there. No we aren't 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th, but certain models sales figures have reached a significant level to have the other guys take notice.

With the introduction of companies like Fronius, Thermal Arc, and even ESAB, the market has proven that there is a a long term demand for something "more and better" People can choose to remain blinded and biased against new things...That's human nature and nothing can be done about it. But with genuinely better products on the market, they are getting passed by.

As a website dedicated to all things tractor and tractor related, its surprising to find such a loyalty to so called American companies, like Miller and Lincoln. Even the two remaining US owned tractor companies own best sellers are not American made. They are made in India and Mexico. Yet a little paint evokes much loyalty, and blindness. I remember hearing dealers and customers boast about Ford tractors, saying they would never leave the market...they would be here another 100 years. (Even though they were mostly british made). International Harvester was the same way...Case, Allis Chalmers too. All these companies were American Giants, now humbled by convoluted mergers and hard times. Who would have thought that when the fiat made Hesston was being sold, that FIAT would one day be one of the big three in the US market..enter New Holland.

Even I remember when kubota started making its heavy duty push into the US, the same sentiments were expressed about that company...The tractors are too light. They aren't designed for the US. They'll overheat. The engines turn too much RPM. They won't last. They can't compete against the Big guys..They are great toys. They don't have a large network of dealers. They'll fail...The Japanese should stick to their rice paddies and keep their tractors stuck in the mud. They should respect the real competition and not try to prove anything...They don't make larger tractors and can't compete across the board etc.etc.

They did have a few problems of course, and bungled a few issues. A dealer friend of mine told me for years as an "older" kubota dealer, he had begged them to come out with a tractor that was 120 horsepower. They had introduced the 60 hp a few years earlier. The engineers from the factory were visiting his dealership and he took time to express his sentiments directly. They scratched their heads and talked about it, and genuinely told them if a farmer had a requirement for 120 hp, then he could easily fill that by selling the farmer two 60 hp tractors!!! They held fast fast to that for some time... No they don't still offer 400 hp behemoths. But its interesting that selling the amount they do in the smaller HP class, they are outstripping the competition now. Those old original kubotas are prized possessions of many a customer and dealer.

The welder industry is no different. Many, Many parallels can be drawn. I know other companies have come and gone in the tractor industry, but most of it is due to management or economics, and not that the tractors were dogs. JD has had a few lemons themselves. Anyone remember a 1010? Can anyone lay their hands on one? Maybe a few..but not many. The same is true for the welder market...One can make great predictions of doom and failure, yet no one would bet their life on their prognostications if they were a wise man.

 

[gauthier]

Your average home type fixer upper welder,needs a basic machine and even a miller or lincoln or hobart basic ac/dc transformer welder or 230 volt mig welder costs probably less than 1000 bucks. Now if you was buying several or you was buying something more for industial use,than yeah you should shop around some,but to me,for something that costs 1,000 or less,why take chances,you can get a depenable name brand machine that has been around for years and probably will be around for many more.

Kinda like buying a weed eater to me,you can buy a 100-150 dollar one or for 3-400 you can buy about the best made.

Not saying the others are no good,at all.

 

[BlacknTan]

This entire welding forum has evolved not into discussion by users, but rather an advertisement for importers to drum up sales for untested products. An internet search for guinea pigs to do the testing.. Folks that would ultimately be too embarrased to come back and post that they threw their hard earned dollars away in China.
When I see some of the "off brand" welders show up in the shops of people I respect for walkin' the walk and not just talkin' the talk, I'll certainly consider one.

Till then, my dollars go to products with a track record that I can judge by..