Started burning E85

[grsthegreat]

I appreciate folks have different opinions and goals on a topic like this.

But - kinda preplexed, grsthegreat on where you are coming from?

Ethanol returns a small but positive energy return of 25% or so more btu's than it cost to make it, including the fert and energy to grow and transport it.

Different vehicles react differently, but several govt studies show most current vehicles run most efficiently on a 20-25% blend of ethanol. The E85 is for hard core use, the E10 is for helping clean up some of the emissions. But for best effect, an E20 blend would be the best bang for the buck efficiency wise. 'Here' E10 is $3.59, E85 is $$2.96, and pure gas is difficult to find, it's close to $4.00. Clearly an ethanol blend in my region is a real money saver. I waish we would get to E15 or E20 soon, people would see better miles per dollar with those blends.

As mentioned, the ethanol subsidy was discontinued, so that no longer is valid.

Ethanol produces about 17 lbs of higher protien feed from every 2.8 gallons of ethanol produced. Only the starch/sugar is removed, leaving a valuable feed source for cattle especially. We still have a surplus of grains in the USA, we farmers are still producing more than we ca consume, some of our exports look more like fire-sales to other countries to get rid of it.

Fine if you don't like ethanol - but the reasons you listed just don't hold up, perhaps you are invested in some of those oil companies that want all the govt money for themselves, no competition? Even they have now started buying the ethanol plants - Valero is big into it - so they see a future with corn ethanol.

Again, ethanol isn't the end all answer, but it helps us get from here to there. Works pretty good for now, see what we can develop down the road.

To those of us farming, the strange idea is using cornstalks or switch gass or tree trimmings to make ethanol - those items are too low in sugar, and the enzymes to convert it effectively still haven't been found. I hope it works out some day, but sure doesn't seem realistic right now today.

--->Paul

where do you get these figures. If they boosted performance..why does MPG decrease with its use.

Makes no sense at all

 

[rambler]

where do you get these figures. If they boosted performance..why does MPG decrease with its use.

Makes no sense at all

I worded it poorly.

Some folks see much poorer milage with E10.

That same vehicle might see milage actually pick up a little, with an E25 blend. It would still be lower than a straight gas, but it would be higher efficiency thzn the E10 blend.

Let's say you get 20 mph with gas. You get 17 mpg with an E10 blend. One would think an E25 blend would give even worse milage......

But actually with the better efficency of the cleaner, more stable, oxygen enriching ethanol, an E20 or E25 might bring you back up to 18 mpg. Anyhow, that is what several research teams have shown.

_Where I live_ ethanol is 95% always cheaper than gasoline and has been since the 80's, so even with a lower mpg the ethanol blends can give you cheaper cost per mile. _Where I live_ an E20 would be cheaper than an E10 per gallon, and if, as it appears, the milage does not get worse, but the E20 might actually be a tad better than the E10 - then I could pay less per mile for a good E-fuel.

You have to balance the cost of a gallon vs the number of miles you get out of thst gallon. An E20 blend can be the best value, even if it gets slightly less mpg than a gallon of pure gas. Tests show the E20 often gets more mpg than an E10 blend. We need to find the sweet spot.

--->Paul

 

[Eyeshade]

I looked up the study the writer above is quoting. He claims the study says E20 got better gas mileage than regular gas. This makes no sense to other writers but is rationalized as there being an "optimal blend" for max fuel economy. The study, done for the American Council on Ethanol ( no bias in that) was based on 4 vehicles running a test course. Here is a quote from the report. Read very carefully as it may not say what it suggests.

"Previous assumptions held that ethanol’s lower energy content should always directly correlate with lower fuel economy for drivers. Those assumptions were found to be wrong. Instead, the new research strongly suggests that there is an “optimal blend level” of ethanol and gasoline—most likely E20 or E30—at which cars will get better mileage than predicted based strictly on the fuel’s per-gallon Btu content."

So it doesn't really say E20 gets better mileage than gas, it says E20 got better mileage than predicted based solely on the btu content......during the test of a whooping 4 cars. I think their language is very carefully written to suggest E20 gets better mileage than straight gas without facts to prove it.

I think the fact remains, it takes more energy to produce ethanol than we gain. I know I might offend the farm belt but ethanol is just another farm aid program.

 

[Eyeshade]

Correction, Rambler didn't say E20 got better mileage than straight gas. My apologies Rambler.

 

[Timber]

This year we bought new tractors to update my fleet with the latest technology in fuel consumption & exhaust emissions covered under the law in the United States. I spend in fuel for each semi I run $600 to $1000 every day. That is the cash I reach into my pocket for each truck in fuel alone. I won't even get into the other cost associated with fuel in each state. This is more than double what it cost me 3 years ago and 2/3 what it cost in 2008. These are numbers out of my pocket and not off some study lifted off the Internet. If you want to talk about what is driving cost of inflation you can blame the cost of oil. If you want know why people are starving to death in this county it is because of the cost of food at the market not any shortage of supply.

I don't agree that ethanol is the cure to our energy needs but to claim it doesn't work or not a viable option is just miss information. The country of Brazil the 5th largest county in the world doesn't import any oil and their entire fuel industry is based on ethanol. You can not claim it doesn't work when it an entire country shows you that it does. The problem with actually getting it to work in this country has to do with infrastructure and not the cost of production. It has to be available to the consumer.

The cost of production goes down when you use alternate fuel to produce the product in the 1st place. It takes time and money to research better feed stock because corn just happens to be in abundance in this country. It is just available but not the best source. I choose to separate my self from oil everywhere I have the power to even if it is not to my advantage on the short term.

Their is a much bigger picture and closing your eyes to pretend that supply's of oil will not continue to cost more with every passing year is just foolish. So I will ride my bicycle 50 miles a day and burn ethanol in my pickup when I need to use it. I will continue to look for a viable supply of bio diesel for my semi rigs. I choose to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

I do not want to support an industry that funds organizations that want to destroy my way of life and the country I call home. I will not purchase imported oil. I will not vote politicians into office that are backed by the oil or automotive industry. I choose to look for alternative ways of creating energy to support my lifestyle. I am only 1 person and I live by my ideals and make my choices based on what is see with my own eyes. I am 50 years old this year and I have seen wonderful things in this world and I have seen sacrifices made that disgust me created for the sake of profit.

I am a hunter & a carnivor, my eyes face forward. I will not follow the herd to slaughter with my eyes closed.

 

[k0ua]

Um.. Brazil has a rather large and ever growing Oil industry..too.. lots of offshore drilling. and Mr. Obama wants to buy their oil too! So I sure wouldn't vote for him if I was you:laughing::laughing:

Brazil faces ‘tyranny of depth and darkness’ in drilling for deep-sea oil - The Washington Post



Oil & Gas Outlook Brasil 2012

Lawmakers, Executives Slam Obama For Boosting Brazil's Offshore Drilling | Fox News

James K0UA

 

[Timber]

Um.. Brazil has a rather large and ever growing Oil industry..too.. lots of offshore drilling. and Mr. Obama wants to buy their oil too! So I sure wouldn't vote for him if I was you:laughing::laughing:

Brazil faces ‘tyranny of depth and darkness’ in drilling for deep-sea oil - The Washington Post



Oil & Gas Outlook Brasil 2012

Lawmakers, Executives Slam Obama For Boosting Brazil's Offshore Drilling | Fox News

James K0UA

I don't dispute that oil will be part of our daily lives in the unforeseeable future in some form. I don't have any faith in anything that Fox news reports on anything. Rupard Murdock has a history of twisting meda to control governments and information that supports his personal agenda.

As far as who the next president is concerned I think the Republican party has done a pretty good job securing his 2nd term. It sure would be nice to have a candidate that I could get behind. Regardless of who holds the office this term the people of this country have a lot more power than they ever have. Social meda has shown people that they have the ability to hold our leaders accountable. The people in the street can bring a goverment to its knees. Our government better pay attention to what the people they represent expect of them.

 

[timster2]

It was asked why the difference in mileage between fuels? Let me put this in the simplest form.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed.

BTU content of each fuel is a known value. If we disregard for a moment efficiencies of engines wind resistance rolling resistance of tires and just measure the energy entering the engine in the form of fuel we can easily see where the differences come from.

Fuel Energy Content BTU/Gallon

Diesel 138,700
Bio Diesel 126,200 -10%
Vegetable Oil 123,143 -12%

Gasoline 125,000
E85 90,660 -28%
Ethanol 84,600 -33%

Engines optimized for each fuel can squeeze out better efficiencies, however, multi fuel engines compromise efficiency in order to use a broader range of BTU inputs.

Figure your mileage in BTU per gallon then adjust for the different fuels and you can see how each fuel is likely to work in your vehicle.

I have been playing in this arena since 1989 converting vehicles to run on alternative fuels for a large fleet. As yet there is no one fuel that will replace gasoline or Diesel.

 

[Eyeshade]

Timber, for a guy who said he doesn't want to argue politics you sure throw out a lot of political statements. Maybe you just want to throw out your opinion and have no one argue. I understand that but maybe I can throw out some information that will provoke some thought. You said the increasing cost of oil is behind inflation in the Country and people being hungry. Actually our clever politicians have made it appear to be true. Here is their line....the greedy Arabs keep raising the price of oil which is vital to all segments of our economy hence everything goes up in price. It is a nice argument, you create a foreign enemy ( not the politician), then you blame all our problems on them or the oil company, and the people get a reinforcement of high prices each week ( or each day in your case) when they fill up. Let's look at it from the foreign oil producer's side. All oil is traded in US dollars, worldwide. The foreign producer agrees to trade x barrels of oil for y dollars. They deliver the oil, a measured amount in gallons, we pay them in DEVALUED dollars, not a constant amount. So they figure out the devaluation and raise their price. Who caused the devaluation? The Arab or our Government's MASSIVE deficit spending? We did but we will blame someone else. To prove the point, the Arabs get the same amount of money for a barrel of oil today as they did in 1977. Yes in ounces of gold (one ounce of gold is still one ounce just like one gallon is one gallon). This "oil inflation" is a creation of our own doing but it is easier to blame others. Here is a graph of oil prices in dollars ( the highest inflation, or the greatest devaluation), in Euros ( less inflation, I guess the Arabs aren't as greedy when they sell to Europe, or has Europe devalued their money less than us), and in gold ( a constant amount, ounces) where the price has been pretty flat. Just something to think about. If we want less inflation we have to stop printing deficit dollars ( many ironically which are printed to help the hungry buy food). The moral of the story, there is no free lunch.
http://www.ridelust.com/the-real-price-of-oil-dollars-gold-and-the-price-of-tea-in-china/

 

[Timber]

I must have changed my mind