Starter problem, 354

[Soundguy]

Looks like that fork drive gear is a bit gooey greasy dirty.. any chance it is binding? Cold grease may be pretty sticky and not let the fork throw out.

At least on ford bendix, if there is any oil or grease on them.. they don't throw out good. They gotta be shiny-eat-off-them clean. or dry-lubed.

Havn't worked with the chinese..so i can't say for syre that is it.. but I'd clean it with brake cleaner.. hit it with graphite lube and see what that got me..

Soundguy

 

[rutty creek]

Ahhh,,, the luxury of a heated garage,, didn't take that into account,,anyway,, in your last photo you can see a small diameter circlip(round wire) partially exposed in slot of end piece; work that out and on the other side is a round ring cut in half that is in a deep groove on the shaft that takes a little work to get out, if yours is the same as mine. I used a 90 deg. pick. I agree w/Soundguy about grease IMHO , especially in cold,,, if at first you don't succeed,, blahblahblah

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Thanks rutty creek. I was hoping getting the retainer off wouldn't be something as picky as you describe. Doesn't sound like much fun!

Once again may I say that there is no binding because of cold or thick greese. My garage is kept between 40 and 60, 40 all the time except when I'm working, when it's around 55 to 60. In Northern Vermont working on a tractor outside in winter is no fun, and winter lasts a long time.

At the time I bought this place I was single, so I decided my garage/workshop would be built before the house. It was a wise decision! I've built two houses to live in so far over my lifetime and each time I lived in a mobile home while building. My present mobile home is very nice and has been somewhat modified to be very easy to live in. Now that I'm with the love of my life we're in the planning stages for the house, with no great rush. Do it right and do it once is a wisdom I appreciate even though this will be the third time I thought I was doing it for the last time.

 

[greg_g]

Yeah, me three. From my perspective, that's still a dirty starter. At a very minimum it needs a thorough cleaning and fresh electrical lube. And if I'm not mistaken, the armature is scored. Consider taking that starter to an auto-electric shop for a rebuild.

//greg//

 

[3RRL]

Sorry about not telling you what a PITA is was to get the brushes back on. The first time I took mine apart I didn't think of clipping them back either. Also sorry about the key shaft but I could not remember what the drive on the pinion gear was like. Nevertheless, it was something to check.
Now, you say when you replaced the solenoid it started but then later the starter whirled but did not drive the fly wheel. Same thing as with the original solenoid, is that right?
I'm thinking that for some reason the pinion gear is not meshing with the flywheel teeth. So the starter motor is spinning it but it's not engaging with the flywheel for some reason. Deduction tells me if the starter motor is spinning, so is your pinion gear. If the solenoid kicks the pinion gear out on the bench, the solenoid is working too. I wonder if you can check the lead-in on the pinion gear and also the flywheel. There might be a spot where there is no lead-in to allow free engagement? Another thing is the alignment of the starter to the housing. On mine there was a counter bore and a couple bolts holding the starter to the housing. It may also be that the starter centerline is too close to the flywheel centerline? If you can do it, see if you can bolt the starter as far away from the flywheel as that counter bore allows. If I remember correctly, there is a very slight bit of play, but might be enough?

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

3RRL, it WAS a major PITA getting the armature back in with the brushes pushed all the way in by their springs. This time, hooking the springs back, it was much easier, but did take some delicate prying to get them over the armature.

As far as the starter alignment, there is no play on my tractor. In fact when I take the bolts out the starter doesn't move. There is a machined circular ridge on the starter motor that fits precisely into a machined enclosure on the flywheel, tight enough that it holds the starter precisely.

Perhaps a cleanup and dry lube would make a difference over the grease, but it seems with my digital handling that there is no binding I can detect. Seems to me exchanging dry lube for grease is a small increment of improvement, on an order smaller than what is needed here.

I put the starter back together and into the tractor. First try gave me the same spinning. On the fourth try it engaged and started immediately. I went out and got firewood in for the night and moved some newly cut firewood to it's stack for next season. Then back in the garage I tried starting it again. Took four tries again to get it to engage.

So I have a situation of off most of the time, and on once out of four tries. Frustrating. One more observation. When I looked at the pinion teeth carefully they revealed a full tooth engagement rather than a partial.

My guess is that the clutch is failing and gives me just enough engagement to inspire invectives. I'm trying to decide between a new starter and just the starter drive.

 

[Soundguy]

Perhaps a cleanup and dry lube would make a difference over the grease, but it seems with my digital handling that there is no binding I can detect. Seems to me exchanging dry lube for grease is a small increment of improvement, on an order smaller than what is needed here.

.

I had to laugh out loud at your reply that it was not a cold grease issue.. that your temps were 40 to 60' Here in fl we get temps in 90' plus.. and grease on a bendix will sometimes not always sling out. Course there is difference in the bendix designs.. but.. ANY drag will cause a throw out problem.

Since it costs you nothing but 4 5 minutes of cleaning and 30 cents worth of cleaner to check.. why not try it ?????

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Just to give you an example of what kind of drag grease and oil will give .. think of a dry plate clutch with a leaky trans input shaft seal.. or leaky rear main seal .. that gives you an oil soaked clutch. Wanna guess what the initial symptoms of a oil coated clutch are? ( sticky release ).. not slipping as might be thought.

Soundguy

 

[SPIKER]

Seeing the bendix, fork & pinion gear I would clean all the excess grease off like suggested grease on them & the slides can cause issues! we had a JD starter off an old hoe/loader in the shop last fall for same symptoms, after 2 rebuilds it turned out to be grease in the slide part that would STICK the gear in-place even with new solenoid he had assembled starter on and coated everything with a good coating, it would work 2~3 times then start sticking & gettin worse untill no workie

Fix was 2 min with a spray can of brake cleaner...

MarkM

 

[rutty creek]

O K ,,Now you got us going,,,CAN the "Q" be answered?? How will this chinese starter problem get fixed?? Just to answer the question, I would have to buy the drive gear,,(got nothin to do with being cheap, honest)

Drives me nuts to get such short service life from things that should last much longer. I bought a marine starter for my boat last summer,gear reduction, GMC, $99.00 new. and 9# lighter

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Yes, I'll clean it up and dry lube it, but I don't hold one whit of hope that it will amount to any change. There's no hesitation on the bench, there's no binding on the bench, there's no hanging up on 50 degree grease. It slaps right out with a wack, spinning like a champ. And it sounds no different on the tractor, no hesitation, a nice high pitched spin. But it doesn't engage most of the time. When it does engage it starts right up.

I'm smiling thinking of the power of relativity. In Florida 50 degrees sounds cold. In this area cold begins at 0 degrees F and real cold begins at 20 below. I plowed with this tractor at 20 below this winter and know how cold slows down the hydraulics, and thickens grease in every fitting. I know how it numbs fingers, toes, and noses, reaching through layers of insulated clothes; I know well the effect of cold on my tractor. 50 degrees is balmy compared to what it was working in only a short time ago. These starting problems have been an issue only for a month and always in the constant temperature of my garage.

Yes I'm hoping against hope that a simple cleaning will be the answer. But nothing in what I have observed points to it. Tomorrow I'll find out.

 

[rutty creek]

Seasoned Vermonter,,
Great lookin place by the way.
Are you done with snow yet?
On my tractor,starter scenario,,mine began the same way with both starters.When my tractor was new, it started great,,about 200 hrs. it started to fail occasionally and went downhill from there,,after buying new starter it did virtually the same thing... the procedure to remove the drive is not as difficult as I may have made it sound,,lots of light and perhaps a magnifing glass and removal of all grease (or anything else to impede view) and it will seem so simple after you're done,, However, even after removal, you will not be able to detect the problem as it may be inside overrunning clutch, if it is the problem, as you would need factory specs to measure/compare. Dissambly of the actual drive gear/clutch is not that easy because it is crimped over to close it up and retain parts. I found some very soft metal was used in the construction of the ramp portion of the clutch and seemed to have a sludge/grease/metal residue which was compacted at the end of ramp travel. My gear was stamped 2001,, don't know if this was a batch problem.

 

[IH250]

I had a similar problem on an Iseki 1910 grey tractor and it ended being the clutch, get a starter drive assy and it should be fine.I had the starter off mine 10 times checking everythng over and over and it would still sound like it wasnt engaging.Come to find out by process of elimination it was the only thing left.As for why it will start when 60 degrees,the engine is much easier to turn over due to thinner oil etc.The clutch/drive assy for mine was 30 bucks I would think yours shouldnt be too crazy besides even if it doesnt work youll have a spare that you will need someday. By the way I culdnt get mine to slip either on a bench,take a carefull look at the clutch with a magnafing glass if needed and look for dust from the clutch slipping or grease that contaminated the clutch.Good luck Jason

 

[Soundguy]

My point was that regular grease.. even in tropical 90' FL weather can cause enough drag to cause problems. If that were a ford bendix.. it would never start a tractor with that much grease on it.

Any chance there is an alignment problem and the drive gear is banging into the edge of the ring gear vs engaging it? Any wear marks on the beveled edge of the drive gear? I've use blue die.. or even plain paint.. or black magic marker on gear mating surfaces to see where i have contact points.

Perhaps you can clean it squeaky clean and see how it works.. I'd worry about the dry lube after I had it working. Some magic marker ont he bevel section of the drive gear will let you know where it is striking.

Any play in the bearings/bushings at all?

wouldn't take much of a degree change to make the drive gear smack instead of engage.. Think of a friction pile. With no side load they can be pulled right out ofthe ground. with minimal side laode=ing they resist being pulled out quite efficiently. That drive gear may work fine under no load.. when it starts to engage it may have enough play to tilt and bing and not fully engage.. or fail to engage altogether.



Soundguy

Yes, I'll clean it up and dry lube it, but I don't hold one whit of hope that it will amount to any change. There's no hesitation on the bench, there's no binding on the bench, there's no hanging up on 50 degree grease. It slaps right out with a wack, spinning like a champ. And it sounds no different on the tractor, no hesitation, a nice high pitched spin. But it doesn't engage most of the time. When it does engage it starts right up.

I'm smiling thinking of the power of relativity. In Florida 50 degrees sounds cold. In this area cold begins at 0 degrees F and real cold begins at 20 below. I plowed with this tractor at 20 below this winter and know how cold slows down the hydraulics, and thickens grease in every fitting. I know how it numbs fingers, toes, and noses, reaching through layers of insulated clothes; I know well the effect of cold on my tractor. 50 degrees is balmy compared to what it was working in only a short time ago. These starting problems have been an issue only for a month and always in the constant temperature of my garage.

Yes I'm hoping against hope that a simple cleaning will be the answer. But nothing in what I have observed points to it. Tomorrow I'll find out.

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

I'm thinking it's the clutch and that I will get a new starter from my dealer and possibly a new starter drive to see if I can get this one back to snuff, too.

Thanks rutty creek for your nice words on my place. I have a view of Jay Peak and the Cold Hollow Mountains from here, both part of the Green Mountain chain, Jay being the last peak in Vermont. The snow is not gone yet. It was almost bare and then we got 12" of heavy wet last Thursday. I managed to get the tractor started to plow that storm. My driveway is a quarter mile long, so if I want to get out I better do the plowing.

Soundguy, I detected no play in the gears and there is no play in the mating surfaces of the starter. The wear pattern on the gears is full contact and I didn't notice any slap against the ring gear marks. I will try the magic marker to see if I can deduce whether it's hitting the ring gear or the clutch that's bad. That it started failing at a little over 200 hours seems more in line with a clutch problem as in rutty's and Jason's cases. I didn't pull the starter till after it failed, so an alignment problem seems less likely at that point.

It's a new day, so I'll see if it starts and go from there. Oh yes, there's snow in the forecast for Thursday!

 

[greg_g]

O K ,,Now you got us going,,,CAN the "Q" be answered?? How will this chinese starter problem get fixed?? Just to answer the question, I would have to buy the drive gear,,(got nothin to do with being cheap, honest)

Drives me nuts to get such short service life from things that should last much longer. I bought a marine starter for my boat last summer,gear reduction, GMC, $99.00 new. and 9# lighter

I answered the "Q" already. Take it to an auto electric shop for rebuilding, which should obviously include cleaning and proper lubrication. While the starter's in the shop, upgrade the wire gauge between the starter switch and the solenoid. If it's glow plug equipped, a larger wire there should help too.

The previous owner of my 2006 model TS354C bought it new last July, and burned out the starter in under 100 hours. The only way that can be done is by simple abuse; in this case, apparently being unfamiliar with the correct starting procedure for his new diesel. He simply cranked too long and too hard. The starter soon weakened by being constantly overheated, not being permitted to cool down between start cycles. It was his fault, but the dealer replaced it under warranty anyway.

I bought the tractor with 132 hours on it. I got the original starter in the deal. Took it to an auto electric shop where the tech confirmed the nature of the abuse. Cost $65 to rebuild, I now have a nearly new spare starter. And now that the weather's finally cooperating, I'm also in the process of upgrading the associated wiring.

Only a guess, but I suspect your $99 starter was for a gasoline engine.

//greg//

 

[rutty creek]

Greg,
My auto electric shop had to get parts for my tractor starter at the same place I get them, thus no savings because he would add his "markup" and labor. Seasoned Carpentry has already broken the starter down to analyze the problem and it would be unYankee to just hand it over at this point.
Yes, my marine starter was for gasoline engine. (explosion proof and for 8.2L)

 

[Soundguy]

Are the clutch's in those bendix replaceable as components.. or are they simple repalced with a new unit assembly?

100-200 hrs seems like such a short life for a starter gear...

Soundguy

 

[rutty creek]

Soundguy,
That I know of, clutch/drivegear is 1 unit. My starter/clutch/drive had to be pried open to analyze. Getting parts to repair this assembly would seem impractical to me as the drivegear is available now where it was not when I had my 1st starter failure.

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Soundguy, I ordered the starter drive from Affordable. It includes the pinion gear, clutch, and solenoid fork as one piece. Rutty creek, unYankee is exactly the right word. If I can break it down, I can fix it just as well as some paid employee in a shop, probably better. Besides this is rural Vermont and electric starter shops aren't easy to come by. Burlington would likely be the closest spot, an hour's drive plus the time to explain the starter and where to get parts. I'd rather do it myself.

My grandfather wrote "Yankee Verse" a book of poetry long out of print. Yankee poetry, funny, witty, and frugal. With hilarious pieces such as:

Alberta

A charming young lady, Alberta
Met a skunk which proceeded to squirt her.
Billy Bates saw the mess,
So he helped her undress,
With no notion at all to desert her.
Alberta stepped quickly behind him,
Made some passes intended to blind him,
Stripped the clothes from her guest
And was speedily dressed,
Leaving Billy as nature designed him.