starting a Stihl saw

hobbyfarm · Dec 18, 2005

OR, just buy an ECHO. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
They ALWAYS start.
If for some reason it does not, it is something YOU did during the starting procedure!

End of story.

SWB · Dec 18, 2005

I know you can get Echos at Home Depot, but who do you get to service them? Echos haven't been mentioned here very much.

CT_Tree_Guy · Dec 18, 2005

After they've "kicked", I usually drop start them because you can squeeze the throttle as you're pulling, which usually makes for easier starting. IF you do the drop start method, MAKE SURE you have engaged the chain brake first by pushing the guard forward. This will keep you from cutting your leg off, and having to sue me. 

DrRod, I am a fairly vocal safety advocate, but I also like to "keep it real". I never would have signed a statement saying I would never drop-start my saw, nor will I stop doing it. Especially when done with the chain brake engaged, as I recommend in my post. I think we can all cite examples of safety precautions cited in manuals to which we say, "Yeah, right". Again, I am NOT advocating "unsafe" practices, just trying to keep it real. Chain brake on, drop-starting fine IMO.

Lastly, I keep seeing "high-test" gasoline being advocated. We always use middle grade. There are (too) many octane rating systems out there, but here in CT, "regular" = 87, "middle grade" = 89, and "high-test" is 93. Bear in mind that if your chain saw, car, truck or any other engine is designed to run on octane X, using a higher octane will NOT improve your performance/power. Higher octane gasolines burn more SLOWLY than lower octane gasolines, and are only required with higher compression engines that would otherwise "ping" as a result of the air/fuel mixture exploding too quickly.

I hate to think how much money is wasted on "high-test" gasoline every year. Take that money and buy the best engine oil you can get (synthetic or dino).

We mix a 6.4 oz. bottle of Stihl low-smoke formula 2-cycle oil with 2.4 (not 2.5 - heaven forbid /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) gallons of 89 octane middle grade and our saws start just like we need them to.

I'll recheck my manuals (I'm not at my shop now), but if they say to use 93 octane, I will be VERY surprised.

turnkey4099 · Dec 18, 2005

I have had many saws over the past 30 or so years. Most used, some new. Homelite (in their day), Poulan, Stihl, Husky. Currently running 2 Stihl (one new - 3 years), 1 Husky.

All of them cold started the same way. Full choke, switch on, pull till it fires (4-5 should be all that is needed) - half choke, or no choke, 1 or at most 2 pulls and they run.

My current newist, Stihl ms310, gave me a few problems new but that was due to the "master control lever". I had a problem hitting the 1/2 choke position.

Warm starts - just pick it up, switch on an one or two pulls. The 310 needs a bit different. For shut off, hit switch while it is still at hight rev - it then starts one pull. If not done that way it take 2-3 pulls to restart warm (no choke).

Drop starting - NO! No matter how you do it, you wind up with a running saw dangling off an outstretched arm at best.

Ever since the ground has receded greatly with the passage of years, I have taken to the "behind the knee/thigh" method. Before someone kicks in with "ball buster" let them come up with just -one- instance of that ever happening. The saw does not 'go between the legs' - the point of the handle goes behind the right knee (or thigh), the left knee props the power head just under the starter, the left hand has the front handle and the right one does the pulling. That way you have 3 points of control. I have never ever even come close to the saw slipping.

Harry K

CT_Tree_Guy · Dec 18, 2005

Drop starting - NO! No matter how you do it, you wind up with a running saw dangling off an outstretched arm at best. 

I am starting to wonder if I have failed to properly convey the fact that with the chain brake engaged, the chain cannot possibly turn? The fact that the saw is running is largely irrelevant if the chain cannot turn.

On Echos: I once asked a very respected chain saw mechanic to please settle the Stihl/Husky "debate" for me. His answer: "If I had to walk a mile into the woods with a saw that I needed to start and run, it would be an Echo".

I have an Echo PB-750 backpack blower, an Echo PB-210E handheld blower, and an Echo PPT-2400 power pole pruner. I have never seen an engine that starts, runs and lasts like an Echo. As much as I like Stihl chain saws, I don't think you could go very far wrong with an Echo.

Lastly, on safety precautions that are just slightly "over the top" - the Echo saw question reminded my of an ad I saw for Echo saws that shows the saw being used with the tip-guard in place. A tip guard covers the nose of the bar, where kickback forces are greatest. How many of you out there have a tip guard on your saw? How many of you are going to go out and buy one, now that you know it will reduce potentially fatal kickback forces? I wouldn't put one on my saw if it were mandated, and I don't employ or advocate unsafe operating practices.

*** Here's a link to Echo chain saws. Notice that on the main page showing all the saws, they all have their tip guard in place. Click on any of the individual saws and they are shown without the tip guard in place. Note that the truly useful safety features like the hand brake to not disappear from page to page. ***

This also reminds me of Norm, on the New Yankee Workshop, where when Norm is cutting something on his table saw, they put up the little disclaimer "Blade guard removed for photographic purposes". How about, "Blade guard removed because Norm thinks it hurts more than it helps?" Splitters are of course a different matter - highly recommended.

Theowegian · Dec 18, 2005

I have a MS260 PRO and I start it between the knees as you said, ( the point of the handle goes behind the right knee (or thigh), the left knee props the power head just under the starter, the left hand has the front handle and the right one does the pulling. That way you have 3 points of control. ) .

This is a method I started using recently and like it better than any other Ive used. I will add that the decompression valve is a nice feature and combined with the "knee method", starting a Stihl is a good way for me.

dwight

CT_Tree_Guy · Dec 18, 2005

Hiya Dwight -

Your post has prompted me to note that the logger friend I referred to in my earlier post favors the "between the knees" method, and I respect his opinions very highly. I'm going to back off from appearing to advocate drop starting. If it's something one feels comfortable doing on occasion (with the chain brake engaged), fine. If it's not, fine too.

Shimon · Dec 18, 2005

This has been an informative thread and I'm still curious to hear about CT_Tree_Guy's chain saw sharpening method! Please, do share. You've had me salivating for a while now....

CT_Tree_Guy · Dec 18, 2005

Shimon -

Sorry, I changed my mind, my secret is going to the grave with me. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just kidding of course, I'll be writing it up ASAP, but I have to keep stopping to actually go cut TREES! Sheesh, that is SUCH a distraction!

Here's a little something to whet your appetite though - one jig is a little rubber-rollered thingie about 2 x 2 inches that sits on the chain and holds the file at exactly the right height via the rubber rollers. Then all you have to do is follow the proper top angle of about 30 degrees, often (usually?) laser-etched on the cutter. It's distributed through Husqvarna dealers and many True Value hardware stores. I will include links to where to get them and pictures, part numbers etc.

The other is the raker gauge, a flat stainless steel tool about 4 inches long and one inch wide. It has two slots in it through which the raker sticks up, one slot for hard wood and one slot for soft wood. Just file off anything that sticks up through the slot, and the raker height is PERFECT, .025" in most cases. Most new chain has the rakers set at .011, detuned and dumbed-down for liability purposes I would imagine. With the rakers taken down to where they should be, the difference in performance is truly remarkable. More to come.

Hey, by the way, you look kinda "down" in your picture - try to cheer up, will ya? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Take care, John

escavader · Dec 18, 2005

My 028 and my new sachs are choke until it fires,let it run a second on choke until it starts sounding different then take it off,and feather the throttle.The stihl will sometimes take 8 to 10 pulls,if its been awHile,and the air filter aint new,but it always starts and runs.
ALAN

CT_Tree_Guy · Dec 18, 2005

The stihl will sometimes take 8 to 10 pulls 

Alan, something's not right if it takes 8-10 pulls, especially an 028. One or two pulls to get a kick should be all it takes. Those cloth-type filters aren't really state-of-the-art anymore, and could stand to be replaced after a few years.

Also, there's nothing like a new plug and fresh gas to get your saw humming again. You can take a spark plug out, look at it, and say it looks OK - even ground it out, give the cord a couple of pulls and see a good-looking spark jump across the gap - and still the plug won't function up to par when subjected to the harsh environment of a cylinder doing its thing. A fresh plug is almost always my #1 suspect when hard starting is experienced. (I say that because we always have good fresh gas).

Speaking of gas, the Echo website had some interesting info on that. They recommend using gas that is no older than THIRTY days, ninety if you use a stabilizer like Stabil in the gas container. I always thought Stabil mixed thoroughly with the gas, but according to them it forms a film on the top of the gas to keep it from reacting as freely with the air in the container. Anyway, maybe its a good idea to occasionally dump your older 2-cycle gas into a another vehicle (the small amount of oil won't hurt anything) and mix up a fresh batch. We use the 6.4 oz. bottles, but the 3.2 oz size makes more sense for occasional users, to make 1.25 gallon batches.

Echo also talked about octane ratings, and say to be sure NOT to use regular grade (87 octane), but rather to use anything between 89 and 92, which rules out premium in my book (93 octane in these parts anyway).

milkman · Dec 18, 2005

( choke until it 'hits', then off choke and start on the next pull.)

That's the way I start all my 2 stroke stuff, just assumed the Stihls would work the same way. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif I like the easy to follow directions. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CT_Tree_Guy · Dec 18, 2005

choke until it 'hits', then off choke and start on the next pull 

Just a reminder, don't forget about the "half-choke" position on the Stihl "master control lever". It can make a big difference if your next pull (after the "kick") is in the "half-choke" or "run" (choke fully off) position. For a cold engine, half-choke is usually best, then as soon as it's running, a squeeze of the throttle sets the choke fully off, and off you go.

Again, let's be careful out there. I have 13 long-gone stitches and a faded scar on my left shin to remind me of how chain saws have a hard time distinguishing between wood and flesh.

(That accident, as most others, required a combination of factors coming together in just the wrong ways. I've never been hurt when working away from other people - always make sure you know what "the other guy" is doing).

Stay safe, think, and take your time -

John

PS Take the time to read and re-read your manual - they all talk at great length about kickback, pushback and other perils, and how to avoid them. It's always a "good read".

Jstpssng · Dec 18, 2005

Long, educational thread. Mind if Iadd a few questions or comments?

First, don't waste your money on anything but a Husky. They are the best, never break down, run forever, blubber, blubber, blubber...

Seriously I own Huskies because I have a great dealer. I.E. Friday I went in for a replacement gas cap; he was out of stock so took one out of his new saws on the showroom.

Stihl also makes a very good product; and any salesman who'll tell you, before you even buy the saw about the pecularities of starting it is worth doing business with. I do concur with others though, better to get too much saw than too little. With minimal care it'll last you a long time.

midlf, just out of curiousity have you ever simply cracked the gas cap open when your saw won't start? It almost seems like a clogged air vent may be causing your problem.

Tree Guy, I suspect you've forgotten more about saws then I will ever know. Do they make a raker guage for the new "safety chain" which is screwing up the market-

ER, which is the most common over the counter chain today? To be honest I usually run an 8 inch ******* file across when necessary, about 3 swipes per raker; not very scientific, but better than buying a new chain. Just a caution to anyone trying it though; taking the rakers down TOO much can cause the saw to pull into the wood, overworking the saw or causing an unsafe condition. You can check your raker depth by setting a straight edge atop 2 teeth on the same side of the chain... the gap between the raker and straight edge should be the above mentioned .025".

Funny you mention those "nose tips"; for years we were taught not to use the tip of the bar; now the safest way to fell a tree is considered to be the plunge cut.

One of the scariest things Ive ever seen is someone running a saw left handed;the bar is pointed right at your face. With all the lip service the logging industry gives to safety you'd think they'd put pressure on the manufacturers for a left handed saw. Sure, you can teach guys to cut right handed; you can also teach a bear to waltz, but it isn't natural. In a split second kickback, an unnatural hold can be hazardous.

I do take exception to your starting technique though. Sure you are using the brake; but don't you worry about stressing it, so that it isn't quite so effective should you ever need it?
To each their own however. I will occasionally drop start my saw; after checking that there is nothing to hit the bar; if it's flooded(or has a frozen fuel line, like yesterday) the rest of the time I use the "hook behind the knee."
The worst is those who drop start, holding onto the center bar; I saw my father cut his leg many years ago doing this...
but he STILL won't wear the chaps I offered him.

Ah well, just my .02 worth. As I said before, and interesting and educational post.

CT_Tree_Guy · Dec 18, 2005

Wow, where to begin with THAT post. Good lord. I have a policy of not using negative adjectives, or sarcasm. This will be a true test. (Oops, I'm off to a bad start already).

First, don't waste your money on anything but a Husky. They are the best, never break down, run forever ... 

I STRONGLY object to the inference that buying a Stihl chain saw is a waste of money. Chain saws were invented by Andreas Stihl, and are among the finest examples of German engineering I have ever seen. That said, I would not categorically say the they are "the best" - merely excellent, superb, world-class, reliable, well-designed and just plain nice.

Neither would I say that they "never break down" or "run forever", because as I said, I finally wore out my 028 after 12 years of constant use. Having said that, it is my personal experience with Husqvarnas that they have far more frequent problems, especially coils, switches, plastic pieces (especially carb covers), stripped screws and melted plastic that is placed too close to the exhaust. Stihls have parts that break too, just not as often. And then there was my Husky 272 that ran for 3 months, then developed a carb and/or crank seal problem that none of the top mechanics I went to could fix. I used it for several months to prop open the door to my shop, then got tired of looking at it and chucked it. I do love my Husky 242 though, great little climbing saw. Well, until it got stolen anyway. But it too had its own little starting quirks.

 I own Huskies because I have a great dealer. [e.g.] Friday I went in for a replacement gas cap; he was out of stock so took one out of his new saws on the showroom.

If my saw dealer didn't do the same exact thing for me, he wouldn't be my saw dealer any more.

the peculiarities of starting [a Stihl] 

I'd like to dispel the notion that Stihls in general have peculiarities in starting, the CARB'ed 361 and my quirky little jewel the MS200T notwithstanding. Every other Stihl I have ever owned or heard of has started like a champ, year in, and year out.

 Do they make a raker guage for the new "safety chain" which is screwing up the market? 

None that I know of - yet another reason I would advocate using chain with no added anti-kickback provisions, but for obvious reasons, cannot.

Good advice on using a straight edge and feeler gauge to obtain .025" raker height. Not as convenient as a raker gauge, but it works.

 Funny you mention those "nose tips"; for years we were taught not to use the tip of the bar; now the safest way to fell a tree is considered to be the plunge cut. 

To my knowledge, there have been no significant changes in felling techniques since the advent of the chain saw. Plunge cuts are involved in many of those methods, but for felling situations not requiring a plunge cut, it is safer to avoid them. That said, there are situations in which they must be used to help avoid personal injury or property damage, or simply to be able to fell the tree at all with a particular saw. Trees with heavy leans are one such situation; trees whose diameters exceed twice the effective length of the bar being used are another. (More on this in the thread Falling split tree.

I agree that left-handed saws would be a good thing to bring to the market. That raises an interesting question - are a disproportionate percentage of "lefties" involved in chain saw accidents.

 I do take exception to your starting technique though. Sure you are using the brake; but don't you worry about stressing it, so that it isn't quite so effective should you ever need it? 

No problem, after all, I've taken exception to the vast majority of your post. Stihl advises engaging the chain brake before starting any of their saws, but does say that just after the engine has started: "[Since] the chain brake is still engaged, the engine must be returned to idle speed immediately to avoid damage to the engine and chain drive (clutch, chain brake)" - so that's what I do, and what I would recommend. I've never, ever had a problem with any chain brake on any Stihl that I have ever owned though, even after many, many years. The chain brakes are actually very simple mechanisms involving steel bands that clamp onto the clutch drum - quite bomb-proof.

There, that's at least .03 worth I guess.

wushaw · Dec 18, 2005

John, I have read many of your long winded post here and there and I can now agree that you havesome great info with Sthil products and starting methods. I like drop starting, it works for me.
I have a 025 and MS260 and both start the same no matter how long they have sat. I run full chisel and wouldn't have it any other way, I've run some other stuff and full chisel just seems to work best .
I use a grinder for my sharpening though... I am the one at the controls not somebody trying to make a buck off me, once I got the hang of it I can sharpen a chain like new everytime.

Good post.

ScottAR · Dec 19, 2005

Just replying to the bottom...

I was always told that gasoline octane degraded very quickly so to start with 93 octane "bought" the most time to still be useable...

Since I almost never use up a whole gallon at once, I follow this method... I will add that this is the only time I buy premium these days...

Jstpssng · Dec 19, 2005

OK, you got me. My comments about "only buying Husky, never break down,..." were meant to be tongue in cheek, because I'm not big on brand loyalty... the ONLY reason that's my saw of choice is because of the dealer. If he sold Stihl, I'd own Stihl. They are both great saws, I'm sorry I gave the wrong impression. Actually I'm looking for new brush saw, and am leaning towards a Stihl.

I did find the comments by the salesman rather odd, ( He said if you didn't, you would flood the engine and might have to bring it back to the dealer to get it started again. ) but I was trying to point out that he mentioned them BEFORE the sale, instead of having the buyer come in Monday PM after not being able to use the saw all weekend. it was he, not I that implied that that particlar saw was finicky about starting. However, I was merely trying to point out that if he was up front about this, he was worth dong business with. (The chances of a saw going back because it's flooded are somewhere between slim and none, if the member can ask what to do here.)

Not so long ago, we were told not to use the tip of the saw. Period. That's why companies like Homelite put the "tip guards" on their bars, in lieu of a chain brake. Now in the Northeast timber industry the plunge cut is taught as the safe way to fell a tree, Along with the proper technique to do so. I suspect that in the Northwest, with their bigger trees, that's a different story.
Fifteen years ago when I took a saw safety course we were taught "the chain brake is NOT a parking brake." Now they are teaching "Set the brake if you are walking more than 2 steps."
Felling techniques in the Northeast have changed, also; at least according to the insurance industry. The Humboldt method is currently considered the safest because it leaves a hinge outside, even if there's rot on the middle; allowing you to control the tree all the way to the ground. Next year some new idea will be the rage. Also, applications in the woods differ from those used when you need to work around power lines, houses, and other challenges; There's a big difference between wiping out a future sawlog, and cleaning out someone's slate roof.

As I said before, you've probalby forgotten more than I'll ever know about saw safety. I am curious though, what the Stihl manual says about drop starting.

I've read many of your posts, and have a lot of respect for you. On the other hand everything I try to say comes across wrong, which is why I don't post much. Sorry if I stepped on your toes.

Take care.

PhilNH5 · Dec 19, 2005

Steve,
I have a Stihl 025C. We use it to cut firewood. It gets a fair amount of use. Except for one time it has always started up easily. The one time it did not was operator error. I pushed the primer bulb the recommended 3 or 4 times. Then did it another 3 or 4 times. I knew I screwed up as I could smell the gas. After that it would not start at all until the next day when it finally dried out.

I also have a Stihl backpack blower and that pig never starts w/o a fight. I hate using it. It does not have a primer bulb. I still have not figured out the proper sequence of choke and cuss words to get it started.

Phil

scott_vt · Dec 19, 2005

Hi John,
I see your in northwest ct. Would by any chance, would that old sawmill on RT #8 north of Winsted be your place?

Just to make this post legal, I own Stihl and have found it to be a great saw, I have the 0-25, nice little saw!

scotty