"Stepped up enforcement" of seat belt law

Trev · Jun 5, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

( "...We were all told that citations would only be issued in conjunction with other violations...Anyone else have any thoughts on either of these?..."

In my community, we have State, county, and local law enforcement setting up check points at various road intersections from time to time to check on numerous violations of DMV law. These include not wearing seat belts, expired auto registration, expired auto inspection, and impairment to a motor vehicle that may be hazardous to one's or another's safety. These vehicle impairments could include cracked windshield, no or poor tire tread, and cracked or missing headlamps and tail lights.

Law enforcement is within their rights to conduct these safety and inspection stops in accordance with applicable local and state laws. If violaters are in violation, they are ticketed....plain and simple.

Driving has always been a privilage....never a right. All who desire to drive should obey all applicable motor vehicle laws.

Besides, in these tough fiscal times, law enforcement have added incentives to conduct these types of stops.

...Bob )

I would say that these kind of periodic quick checks seem reasonable to me.. I don't want some guy on the road with me if he's driving an unsafe vehicle. I'm not sure that seatbelt usage fits this category, though, as failure to wear a belt puts nobody at risk beside the non-belt-wearer.

Being basically evil by nature, however, I have to point out that I think you will find that 100% of violators are in violation. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Best,
Bob

bpence · Jun 5, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

Interesting thoughts. I'm a major proponent of seat belt use....any way it can be achieved. I will not ride in a motor vehicle without snapping the seat belt on....period. I've had a couple of jobs in my life, plus a couple of accidents, that have led me to the belief. First, I was a claims adjuster and saw after the fact what could and did happen when seat belts weren't worn. Second, I was an EMT riding shotgun on an Advanced Life Support truck and saw first hand what could and did happen when seat belts weren't worn. It didn't take long for me to figure out that I had a lot better chance of surviving a car crash with versus without a seatbelt. There may be isolated cases where someone "may" have fared better without the belt, but the odds aren't good and I never saw one.

Do I agree with the mandatory seatbelt laws. Yes and no. I believe in freedom of choice, but I also believe that driving is a privelage, not a right. If you wish to exercise the privelage, I guess you have to abide by the laws.....one of them being the necessity of seat belt use. I personally think government is too big and too interfering, and would like to see more of our law enforcement resources direct at real law enforcement, not necessarily seat belt enforcement. Then again, I was an ambulance EMT for almost 5 years and can count on part of one hand the automobile fatalities I dealt with that were wearing seat belts. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the ones that weren't wearing seat belts.

Everyone has to choose. Is it a good law? Debateable. Should everyone wear seat belts? Absolutely yes. Why don't folks all wear seat belts? Uninformed. Misinformed. Choose to ignore the facts. Believe in the "not me" theories. Never had an accident. Not comfortable. Lots of reasons. I'm not about to criticize any of them. Everyone has the right to choose. Only make the choice that's right for you.

The fact remains, we have seatbelt laws. Breaking the laws carries consequences. Until enough folks take on the task of changing the law, it will remain. As for me, no one is allowed in any of my vehicles if they don't buckle up. The car or truck simply doesn't move until all seatbelts are buckled. Call me crazy if you will, but also call me alive.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 6, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

Bird:

If you can tell when it's likely that you'll have an accident, you need to tell the rest of
us how to do that, and then we'll avoid all of them. After 41 years of wearing a seat
belt, I'm one of those for whom it just doesn't feel natural to not have one on. And I have
no doubt it saved my life once (I was in the right passenger seat) when it wasn't likely
we'd have an accident; i.e., no emergency, no racing, etc. 

1) Sorry, Bird, while it is theoretically possible (from an epistemelogical point) to know when it's likely that you'll have an accident I havn't given the matter enough thought to answer that. There, that ought to make you happy.

2) This whole thread reminds me of the car chase scene in the movie Bullitt. Before the chase scene gets started, one of the bad guys looks at his partner and makes a point to "buckle up". In the end, they both die in a wreck. Seat belts didn't save them as they wouldn't have in real life either.

3) I would be more apt to buckle up as a passenger since I trust my driving more than anyone elses. The few accidents I've had were directly a result of not paying attention to where I was going. It's as simple as that. As I said above, when I have belts on I feel safer. For me, I prefer to feel less safe-makes for more defensive driving. Frankly, I think paying attention to what's going on around you is the single most important thing in safe driving. Never assume the other guy is going to stop just because he has the red light. And so forth.

4) Things often are not as simple as they seem. There are certain situations where wearing a seat belt could cause a death, not avoid it. In other situations seat belts would, indeed, make the difference between life and death. Seat belts are not an end-all, be-all for safety. They are one part, and not even close to the most important part, of safety.

JEH

Anonymous Poster · Jun 6, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

In Florida, a seat belt violation can not be the primary reason for the traffic stop. There has to be another lawful reason to make the initial stop.

For those who are not aware. you cannot be stopped because the officer just picked you out. He/she must have a lawful reason to initiate the traffic stop. (See the 4th and 14th amendments).

I personally don't care if an adult chooses to wear his seat belt or not. Children are not educated enough to make that choice. Parents are responsible for their childrens safety. If you don't have the common sense to put a seat belt on your kids, well....

In 5+ years of law enforcement (I'm 39), I have NEVER written an adult a ticket for failing to wear a seat belt. I have written about 6 to people who had unsecured INFANTS in their vehicle. I have issued hundreds of verbal/written warnings.

Responding to crash scenes, I have only seen 2 or 3 seat belted fatalities. I have seen dozens of people killed in what appeared to be minor crashes. I have seen dozens of people walking around their cars seemingly uninjured (due to seat belt/air bag), in what I initially thought was a fatal crash. Ask an ER nurse.

I have no "quota", I am far to busy responding to bar fights, domestic calls, barking dogs, alarms, 9-1-1 misdials, domestic calls, alarms, robberies, crashes, burglaries, drug overdoses, suspicious persons, landlord/tenant disputes, alarms, gas "drive offs",
9-1-1 misdials, etc, etc, etc.

Most (that's MOST)of the above listed calls are "fun". They are why MOST people become police officers. I doubt there are many officers who think it's "fun" to write seat belt tickets to Joe Average during "click it or ticket" week.

I am employed near Orlando Florida at a medium size agency (300 Officers). I assume some small town agencies MUST aggresively enforce traffic laws for revenue purposes (See AAA website).

Don't blame the road patrol officer/deputy for the above. Call the Chief, Sheriff, Mayor, Congressman, Representative etc.

I supported the repeal of the helmet law in Florida. However, it requires that you hold $10,000 in medical insurance. That lasts about 3 days for a head injured patient. Take a guess where the rest of the money comes from.

Woooo, I'm done.

Gary_in_Indiana · Jun 6, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

 you cannot be stopped because the officer just picked you out. He/she must have a lawful reason to initiate the traffic stop. (See the 4th and 14th amendments) 

That's the way it should be. We all know it isn't all the time. This seat belt deal (like the open container laws) is just one more "reason" to allow those amendments to be circumvented by law enforcement personnel. I'm generally very conservative but this has gotten ridiculous.

I was 'profiled' recently and stopped on a bogus speeding beef because the local constabulary was trying to work DUI's extra hard to justify some federal dollars in a particular program. Apparently a gray haired white guy in a nice SUV coming from the bar/nightclub area at midnight on a Friday night is a good bet for a DUI.

I wasn't speeding. I was told I was "going fifty." When I gave him a rather questioning look, the officer immediately backtracks with "...well... almost fifty." It took all my self control not to roll my eyes at that. I've never seen a gun that reads "50... well, almost 50..." They read exact numbers. Needless to say, I was never shown the gun. I was told the limit was 35. The officer unwrapped the sealed, sterile tube himself and place it on the breathalizer. After I used it he just pulled it off and dropped it on the pavement. I blew 0.0 and when he handed me back my license it was "OK, have a nice night."

These are times you wish you could say what you're thinking but dare not. Let me share with you so these thoughts won't die with me. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

A. "Let me see that gun that reads 'kinda, sorta almost 50 maybe'"

B. I'm not putting my mouth on that thing. I don't know where your hands have been." The proper procedure here is for the officer to hand the wrapped tube to the "suspect" to unwrap and insert.

C. "Hey, pick that up! I live around here. I don't throw garbage on the street in your neighborhood."

D. "I thought I was speeding. What about that?"

E. (the next day after I'd checked the signs and found the lowest speed limit from where I dined to where I was stopped was 40 mph) "You want to show me where that 35 mph speed limit is?"

All in all it was a terrible "stop' as far as I could see.

To be fair, I want to go on record here that the vast, vast majority of my dealings with police over the years have been good and professional (and, yes, even when I've gotten tickets). I have noticed a distinct trend in this profession as in others, though. I hope it doesn't continue.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 7, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

I'll try to hit these one at time...

Like any other general group of people, some LEO's will be less than truthful in their dealings. It's the exception. Traffic stops are a patrol officers bread and butter. Murderers, rapists, burglars, drug dealers and general purpose bad guys ALL travel by car. Most LEO's are looking for bad guys on traffic stops. If you don't show some nice bad guy potential after checking for license and warrant status, your likely on your way with a verbal warning.

We all know that racial profiling is illegal. As a general rule, I don't know anyone who thinks a " gary haired white guy in an SUV" is a very promising traffic stop.

He may not have had radar. "Pacing" is an appropriate way to measure speed. Did he say he had you on radar?

I have not been trained to administer the breathilyzer test. However, I have seen it done and the operator always tells the driver "don't touch" the mouthpiece. I don't know why. Throwing the mouthpiece on the ground was inconsiderate and disrespectful to you as a citizen. (good complaint).

The Officer in question sounds poorly trained. Did he tell you he believed you were DUI? If so, did he tell you why (weaving, stopped in roadway, etc.)?Did he ask you to perform any field sobriety tests? Did he say "you were speeding, blow in this".

I fully understand "holding your tounge". but, you should have called and lodged a complaint. We (LEO's) are fairly autonomous. I may go an entire 12 hour shift without seeing my supervisor. Legitimate complaints "keep us in line".

I agree that this appears to have been a "terrible" stop. But, Try not to become "racist" against police officers based on this one incident.

Gary_in_Indiana · Jun 7, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

FIRST and foremost, let me be very clear and point out I never used nor intended to imply the 'profiling' to which I referred was racial.

I was 'profiled' as a middle-aged white guy coming out of a bar/nightclub area at midnight on a Friday night. I have to disagree with you and state that is a VERY promising DUI stop and that's the program with Federal dollars that was in place at that time. As to race, believe the officer who made the stop was also a white guy, though he may have been Hispanic. In either event he was much younger. I didn't pay that much attention to his race, honestly.

You make a good point about "pacing." The officer did not ever say he had me on the gun though every single marked patrol car here is so equipped. In either event, I don't think that that excuses either not knowing the speed limit or out and out lying about it, though.

As to the breathalizer mouthpiece, it was a city police supervisor from whom I learned the policy on opening the sanitary mouthpiece package. In this day and age of health concerns of communicable disease, it certainly makes sense, too.

To address your questions here; Did he tell you he believed you were DUI? If so, did he tell you why (weaving, stopped in roadway, etc.)?Did he ask you to perform any field sobriety tests? Did he say "you were speeding, blow in this" , I have to say he never said he thought I was DUI hence never said why, if he did think that. He asked for no field sobriety tests whatsoever. At the time of the stop he did ask if I'd had anything to drink and I told him I'd had a drink with a six PM dinner and one after dinner drink but that had been hours earlier so I was pretty sure I was OK. After running wants & warrants on me he returned to my door and said, "Let's just see how those drinks might be effecting you" and produced the breathalizer.

As to me allowing this to change my outlook or opinion of police, I can assure you it's not going to happen. As I said in my earlier post, "I want to go on record here and say that the vast, vast majority of my dealings with police over the years have been good and professional (and, yes, even when I've gotten tickets). I have noticed a distinct trend in this profession as in others, though."

Anonymous Poster · Jun 7, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

Just a late addition to this long thread.

The statistics I have seen suggest that not wearing a seat belt raises the chance of serious injury and/or death. If it were just dying or not dying that would simplify things.

I would encourage folks to think about what happens when you don't die from an accident though - that's a wide span of possible injuries. Even if you want to express your 'freedom' by not buckling up -- spare a thought for those that would have to look after you in the event of you becoming disabled.

Just a thought.

W

gerard · Jun 7, 2003

Re: \"Stepped up enforcement\" of seat belt law

Sometimes the misinformation out there is mind boggling, especially when people start quoting the consitutional protections offered by the amendments. First off lets remember when the 4th amendment was written, which protects from "unreasonable search and seizure", there were no cars! There-fore everything from the point it was written to today is merely an interpretation of what was meant in the current times. These interpretations can and do change as times change and courts revisit what is "unreasonable". (The founding fathers wrote this to prevent the kings soldiers from kicking in your door in the middle of the night, eating your food, sleeping in your bed, and then leaving without so much as a thank you. THAT was what they considered "unreasonable". I seriously doubt they had current applications of the 4th amendment in mind when they wrote it.

Different states have different seatbelt laws, Florida may need another violation observed, NY does not and never did. To be stopped in NY legally all the officer needs is "reasonable suspicion of a traffic violation". Doesn't mean there has to in fact be one. (example - officer passes you and it looks like your inspection is expired, he stops you and then on closer inspection see's it is NOT expired. When he talks to you he finds out you're drunk. The stop was legal and you still go for the dwi ALTHOUGH he would lose the right to continue the stop as soon as he/she observed the inspection to be legal)

Gary - Needless to say, I was never shown the gun The units that allow the speed to remain on the screen after the vehicle passes haven't been used (at least by our agency) for about 15 years. Not only aren't you entitled at that point to observe the radar unit for various reasons, it's just not possible. The reading dissapears when the signal stops which it does because you are now stopped and NOT speeding. (I do agree with the rest of your post and think you gave a good example of how police should NOT behave) 

Re seatbelt use and the pro/con arguments - To the people who cite the few examples of situations where you would have been better off not wearing one - just stop. You insult everyones intelligence by making an argument like that. Legalities aside, arguing you would rather be safe only 2% of the time instead of the 98% or so you'd be by wearing them is just inane, as is the comment that you're more likley to wear them as a passenger due to your confidence in your own driving abilities (which you follow up by referring to the few accidents you had that were due to your inattention?????????) Again logic seems to be absent here. Al Unser can't control someone else from hitting him. Since when does YOUR driving ability prevent someone else from crossing the center line and hitting you head on? Argue the legalities and the pros/cons of seatbelt usage LAWS all you want but PLEASE don't try and make a logical argument for not using them based on safety. There IS NO argument on that and to try and make it just shows a complete lack of actual real world experience with accident investigations.