Stupid question

   / Stupid question
  • Thread Starter
#11  
What happends if you have a steel "ball" filled completely with water and so strong that the freezing pressure cant crack it, and you put it in a cold place?
Will the water remain liquid? No matter how cold it is?

( not much on TV tonight)
 
   / Stupid question #12  
1948berg said:
What happends if you have a steel "ball" filled completely with water and so strong that the freezing pressure cant crack it, and you put it in a cold place?
Will the water remain liquid? No matter how cold it is?

( not much on TV tonight)

Gunnar,
You sound like my nephew (he's 6) asking all kinds of questions. My speculation would be that something HAS to give.

It's kind of like asking if God could make a rock so big that even he couldn't pick it up...or what if an object travelling through space that couldn't be stopped were to hit an object in space that couldn't be moved.

In both those instances, I think the price of tea in China would come down.

Have a good evening! :)
 
   / Stupid question
  • Thread Starter
#13  
"I think the price of tea in China would come down".
Do you really think that the price on tea is going down? Thats really good news!
I think this good news even will please Gatorboy!
 
   / Stupid question #15  
1948berg said:
What happends if you have a steel "ball" filled completely with water and so strong that the freezing pressure cant crack it, and you put it in a cold place?
Will the water remain liquid? No matter how cold it is?

The freezing point of water will decrease to a lower temperature as pressure increases. For example, the pressure of ice skate blades on the ice will melt the ice a bit making it very slippery.

I don't know where the limits on this occur, however (those darn "Cs" in physics again!
 
   / Stupid question #16  
texbaylea said:
Cold is, very simply put, a lower energy state than hot down to "absolute zero". We are fortunate that water's maximum density is about 4*C above freezing then expands below that until it freezes. This why ice floats. Without this property, all lakes above a certain latitude would freeze solid in the winter and only a top layer would thaw during the hot seasons. The Great Lakes would be frozen to the bottom.

Vernon

P.S. Surely I am not TBN's only resident physicist.

And, it is possible that animal life on this planet might not be possible without the phenomenon of water expanding as it freezes.

I am grateful for that little oddity of physics.

But on the other hand, it sure would be nice if it froze at, say, -40. We would need better refrigerators to make ice cubes, but driving in snow and ice would sure be reduced.
 
   / Stupid question #17  
1948berg said:
Is the cold weather some sort of energy, or is it the opposite? Could we save the cold and use in the summer (like the old ice cabinets)
Freezing water cracks any pipe no matter how strong it is, it must be energy?
As I said, stupid question when everybody talks about global warming, but I could not help thinking it.

Excellent questions, not stupid at all...

Your first question deals with the removal and addition of heat energy from a system, and this is the same concept that governs air conditioners and heat pumps, as well as any heat engine, such as an internal combustion engine. It's all found in the wonderful science of thermodynamics...Laws of thermodynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As to freezing water, another excellent question. Water is one of the only liquids that behaves this way, and to understand it, you have to look at what's going on at the molecular level. Some very strange behavior starts to occur with water at the so called "triple point" of zero degrees Celsius or 32 deg. Fahrenheit. This is where water exists at both a gas, liquid, and a solid:

Why does water expand when it freezes?
Why does liquid water have a density maximum?

Most liquids have a quite simple behavior when they are cooled (at a fixed pressure): they shrink. The liquid contracts as it is cooled; because the molecules are moving slower they are less able to overcome the attractive intermolecular forces drawing them closer to each other. Then the freezing temperature is reached, and the substance solidifies, which causes it to contract some more because crystalline solids are usually tightly packed.

Water is one of the few exceptions to this behavior. When liquid water is cooled, it contracts like one would expect until a temperature of approximately 4 degrees Celsius is reached. After that, it expands slightly until it reaches the freezing point, and then when it freezes it expands by approximately 9%.

This unusual behavior has its origin in the structure of the water molecule. There is a strong tendency to form a network of hydrogen bonds, where each hydrogen atom is in a line between two oxygen atoms. This hydrogen bonding tendency gets stronger as the temperature gets lower (because there is less thermal energy to shake the hydrogen bonds out of position). The ice structure is completely hydrogen bonded, and these bonds force the crystalline structure to be very "open", as shown in the following picture:


ice1.gif


In the following two pictures, the first shows a typical structure of liquid water, while the second is an ice structure; note the extra open space in the ice.

liquid1.gif
ice2.gif


It is this open solid structure that causes ice to be less dense than liquid water. That is why ice floats on water, for which we should all be thankful because if water behaved "normally" many bodies of water would freeze solid in the winter, killing all the life within them.

Water's "density maximum" is a product of the same phenomenon. Close to the freezing point, the water molecules start to arrange locally into ice-like structures. This creates some "openness" in the liquid water, which tends to decrease its density. This is opposed by the normal tendency for cooling to increase the density; it is at approximately 4 degrees Celsius that these opposing tendencies are balanced, producing the density maximum.
 
   / Stupid question #18  
DocHeb said:
The freezing point of water will decrease to a lower temperature as pressure increases. For example, the pressure of ice skate blades on the ice will melt the ice a bit making it very slippery.
Doc - I was taught this and you were taught this, but it seems to be one of those things that when people actually got around to investigating it seriously, they found that it just wasn't true. :eek: It turns out that the pressure of a skate blade is enough to lower the freezing point by less than one degree C - not enough to melt the ice unless it is already really close to its melting temperature. If you would like, I'd be happy to email a classroom handout to you and you can do the calculation yourself.

It's too bad, isn't it? It made such a clever explanation.:)

Tom
 
   / Stupid question #19  
1948berg said:
Why?
Where does the energy to krack the pipes come from?

The energy is in the water before it freezes. But the temp drop will eventually take it away and water has to freeze and since it expands with freezing (water haas tghe smallest volume @ 4C, I believe) it will crack the pipe.

I remember some sci fi where they resolved transfer of energy in time - and iin the future sucked the energy from millions of years ago creating the ice age:)
 
   / Stupid question #20  
I remember seeing an article about some guys that built a go cart that ran on compressed air. They compressed the air by freezing a high pressure tank (like a n oxygen tank from a cutting torch) half full of water.
 

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