Super A steering box loose

[jeffgreef]

Hi guys, thanks for all your help as I figure out my new acquisition. Changed out all the fluids and it's running well. It was pretty clean inside, for 65 years. No major gunk, but the tranny oil was almost white as milk and gooey like it had foamed up. I put some diesel and atf in it, drove it a little and then drained that ugly soup out of it. Hydraulic fluid wasn't bad to start with, engine oil ok, I dropped the pan and no major goop. The oil pickup screen in the pan look clean. Inside the oil filter was clean, valves slightly out of adjustment but not much. Purrs like a kitten when warmed up.

But the steering is very, very loose- you can turn the wheel 1/8 turn before it engages the opposite direction. All the steering ball linkage is fine and tight, as are the wheel axles in their housings. I can see clearly that the steering arm coming out of the steering box is not moving within that 1/8 turn. So I took out the keeper nut and pulled the bearing- it's ok. So, I guess I have to conclude that the steering gears are worn badly. Don't see how an adjustment could take up the slack. What you think? Is this common on these units? Are new steering gears available?

 

[DJ54]

New gears seem to still be available, but you may want to just get used to a little slop. The steering shaft with worm gear is $728.43. Case/IH online parts book shows the sector gear available in 3-7 days, and no price listed. That's scary...

Could be several things worn. Worm gear & sector gear. Bearing on the sector gear shaft worn, and letting it move some. And even possible, the key holding the sector gear in place on the shaft being worn. On another tractor forum recently, a fellows father-in-law had the steering go completely out on his. Come to find out, the sector gear key sheared clear off.

On the A I have now, years ago the steering was pretty sloppy. I turned the wheels 1/2 turn of the steering wheel, and marked their location. I then turned them back to straight, and took the steering shaft out. I then turned the front wheels back to where 1/2 turn of the steering wheel put them. Then reinserted the steering shaft. That way, when the wheels were straight, the sector gear was meshing with the opposite side of where it normally did, and maybe not worn so bad. It did help a little, but not all that much. Just the nature of the beast. There is no wobble in the front wheels when running on the road in road gear, so I can live with that.

 

[DJ54]

One other thing. If ever the trans oil gets milky again, throw in a quart of rubbing alcohol too. It will help absorb the water, and carry it out.

 

[jeffgreef]

Thanks DJ. That scenario of the key shearing is not a pretty sight, particularly since the road I'm maintaining is on a hillside and I need to scrape gravel close to the edge. So I guess I'm going to open the steering box and see what's going on. Found worm gear for $250 and sector for $150, still don't want to spend that if a .50c key will make it safe.

Looks like opening the box will be a chore. I suppose the thing to do is lift the engine with a chain hoist so the axle can be removed. Can't quite see where to lift the engine from, though. Thoughts?

And thanks again for all your help, and others

 

[DJ54]

Don't lift on the engine at all. Assuming the belly blade is off, chock the rear wheels, then set some cribbing under the bell housing. If you have a fairly long 6 X 6, you can set it on end, and jack it up with a small hydraulic jack. Do put a piece of wood between the top of the jack, and bell housing to keep the jack from kicking out. Once you get high enough, crib it to hold it, then let the pressure off the jack.

Depending on if you want to drop the front axle now, or roll the whole unit out from underneath it is the next question. You can roll the whole unit out at one time, but you need to take everything off the front end, including the radiator. Remove the small bolt that holds the collar, holding the steering shaft on the steering post. You need to have it jacked high enough just to let pressure off the 4 bolts holding the steering assy., to the front of the engine block. Once those bolts are removed, you'll need to raise it more, so as to let it come out, pretty near below the crankshaft pulley. Pulling the steering shaft out of the steering post, then dropping it down some, you can actually push around in one piece. At some point, you'll still need to separate the front axle from the steering housing. That will include removing the large U-bolt that cradles the axle when at a tilt to the right side. It's hard to explain what to do, when you're not sure what someone has to work with.

Years ago I made some outrigger's I guess you'd say out of 3" channel, and flat plate, with holes drilled to bolt to the flat boss's, where the cultivator's mount on the side of the bell housing. Then had a tall set of jack stands to carry the tractor, which eliminated a lot of cribbing under the tractor. I then used an engine hoist, and a smaller set of jack stands to deal with the front axle, and steering assembly.

 

[jeffgreef]

Thanks DJ. That gives a clear picture of the procedure. Lot of work just to open a steering box, but that's the nature of the beast.

I'm considering doing a thorough rebuild of the box, despite the high cost. There is a kit available with new bearings, bushings, gaskets and seals. The description of the kit says that the bushes need to be reamed to fit the shafts. What exactly do they mean? The bushing ID is manufactured small, so a tight custom fit can be machined to the existing parts? Wondering why this is necessary (why don't they make the bushes to fit the shafts to begin with), but most important, do I need to take it to a machine shop?

 

[DJ54]

Pretty sure they are undersized to allow for wear on the shaft. But that's not saying the shaft would be worn perfectly round.

I guess it depends on how particular you are. Have the shafts trued up at a machine shop, then bushing to match. Taking a wild guess, I'm guessing several hundred dollars to do that. Not so much for the work, but set up time. I think around here minimum set up is $75. I could be way off base on that though.

Personally. I'm not that particular about a little jiggle in the wheel. Nothing I do here, or foresee in the future I need the steering that tight. But, to each his own. I guess I've operated enough worn out stuff over the years, allowing for windage, and elevation has become second nature to me...

 

[jeffgreef]

Well I figure if I'm going to bother to open it up to be sure the keys are tight, might as well take the opportunity to fix it, at least to a certain extent. There's a steering shaft from an A for sale right now, used but in good condition, at one of the dimantlers. Will it fit a Super A? The A part number is 46511 DXA, and the Super A part number is 351820R92. Is there a cross reference? I've heard that the Super A is just an A with hydraulics, but it's probably not that simple.

 

[DJ54]

Since Case/IH pulled the straight letter models of their site, can't say that I know they will interchange. But, who's saying that one isn't worn as much, or more than yours. I wouldn't get too worried about ordering parts, until you open it up, and see what you have.

When the online parts books were first put online. I do know that Ford/New Holland had a part number search, that when you entered the number, it gave a picture and description. Along with that, was a list of tractors this part was used on. I would have to guess they kept track of the hits on this, and guys looking for used parts were using it, or people selling used parts found it handy, to advertise a certain part fit numerous models. Probably didn't take them long to figure out they were losing sales on new parts, and removed it.

 

[flusher]

The first thing I would do is pack the steering box with the stiffest gear lube I could get my hands on.
If that doesn't fix your problem, then start looking on eBay and Craigslist for used parts.

That Case/IH price is too steep for my tastes.

My 1951 Super A had loose steering, but not as much as you have.

Good luck

 

[jeffgreef]

Called an IH dealer and learned a little about parts numbers. I asked if he could cross reference an old original model A part number to that of a Super A to see if they are the same part, specifically the steering shaft with worm gear. But he told me that they no longer even show the old part numbers for the As. They do show part numbers for the Super As, but that particular part is no longer available. He said that it is always worth asking, though, because in some cases some of the old parts are sitting on shelves somewhere and can be obtained.

I asked if IH ever put out any cross-reference books, he said that they did in the past but he hasn't seen them in years. They used to call them 'sub books' (substitution parts) and were only available to dealers. I tried a search for those and came up with nothing. Not that I'm going to keep searching for such a book just for the sake of parts for my one tractor, but it would be a useful reference for those of us determined to keep these old beasts running.

 

[DJ54]

I filled out a questionnaire on the Case/IH online parts page, and specifically asked why they took the older models off, and requested they put them back. I do realize they have probably thousands of models listed, but also realize they more then likely have some "Techies" setting around making big bucks, twiddling their thumbs.

I'm sure they keep track of hits for all models, and if they don't generate enough hits, it's not worth keeping on site. And along with number of hits, probably corresponds to parts actually sold for the older models. Then you got guys like me looking for a part, then either buying used, or aftermarket.

I'm just wondering if the sub books were in the era of the micro fiche days. I'd imagine a lot of those systems were put in dumpsters when everything went computerized. Some may end on ebay, or still setting on a shelf somewhere collecting dust.

 

[jeffgreef]

And a few of those dusty old tomes will still be there long after all the hard drives have failed.

I've heard predictions that future historians will find a great void of information after the year 2000, because all the digital media will be unreadable.

But my tractor will still be there, in the barn, collecting dust, thirsty for gasoline.

 

[DJ54]

It does make you wonder if the CUT's of today will be still running 60 years from now, and what parts will be available for them. There are some early one's now, that a person can't get parts for.

Love my old iron. My newest tractor is a '67, and I'm good with that.

 

[flusher]

Doesn't look promising for replacement parts for your Super A steering.
I'd just pack the steering bolster with grease and go from there.

A few years ago I bought a 1945 Oliver 60 row crop tractor for restoration. I found that the rear axle was packed full of grease to handle problems with worn gears. Took me several days to drain that stuff.

Good luck

 

[DJ54]

You can always try the 1/2 turn of the worm gear I described above. Might tighten it up some.

 

[jeffgreef]

You may be right that I won't find a good worm gear. Numerous Super As are listed in the dismantlers section on tractorhouse, I haven't checked those yet, but I wonder if I could find a used one in better shape.

DJ- still not sure how turning the worm gear 1/2 turn would work out- would that limit turning radius to one side of the tractor? I think that essentially what you are doing is moving the gear that messes with the worm to one tooth forward or backward so that when going straight forward the worm and gear mesh on different teeth which are less worn. It would be interesting to experiment with moving the worm gear forward so that the less worn rear portion of the worm meshes to the steering gear. This would mean shimming behind the bearing. Maybe a special order slimmer bearing could be used, with a washer or two behind it. The steering gear is readily available, though expensive.

 

[DJ54]

Yep, just puts the worm gear a half turn away from the sector, where it's been chattering for years. I guess you'd know more after getting apart, and see if you visibly notice any wear. Like I said, it helped mine a bit. Close enough for me, I'd rather have it chattering on those gears, than my wrist's.

If I recall, you said your's had about 1/8 turn free play, mine wasn't near that much.

I still wouldn't get too excited about different parts, until you get it apart, and see exactly what is worn. Could be the worm sector, or, like the guy in another forum, had the sector gear/shaft key shear completely off. And I'm sure that was after years of working back and forth. I can't imagine that front end assembly taking that much of a shot to shear it all at once, without breaking something externally.