Swap electric panel question...

Richard · Feb 28, 2006

I know I need an electrician, so no one needs to worry about me zapping myself /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I've got a 200 amp service panel. I don't know if we used circuits flippantly, I didn't count now many circuits, but they're full.

I'd need to finish the basement which will house utility room (washer/dryer already patched in), full bathroom, garage and a home theater system & several tube amps (my understanding is they'll draw more than solid state).

I was wondering if there is a 250 or perhaps a 300 amp service panel?

I was thinking I could have a larger panel swapped out by qualified electrician of course, and in order to keep the circuits for my HT system isolated, perhaps add a seperate 50 amp sub panel. I know 50 is over kill but I don't need to use it all (?) I understand the more I can isolate the HT power, it might help keep noise in the system down (lights/fans)

So, do they even make a larger than 200 service panel for homes? I was at HD today and 200 seemed to be their max.

If I can find one, is it a major undertaking? Since I've already got a Square D box, I was thinking I could buy a new box and "X" number of new breakers while simply reusing my old breakers. If that's accurate, I'd suppose that the big expense will be labor.

Any thoughts?

_RaT_ · Feb 28, 2006

Way to many unknowns to know. Typically, a 200 amp panel is sufficient until you start getting into electric heat and homes up in the 4000 sq foot plus area where 400 amp services are common. There are so many things that can free up space in your existing panel especially depending on its make. Quad breakers add considerable space. Twins free up one spot for every single it replaces. The important thing is that after your load is calculated that your exisiting panel and feed are suitable. If you have gas or oil heating, chances are unless your in a monster of a home (which seems quite popular these days and I still can't figure out why) your exisiting 200 amp panel is suitable, it just needs cleaning up and a little diet.

MikeIA · Feb 28, 2006

Yes, they make bigger panels. ...go to www.squared.com and look at "Load Centers" under "Electrical Distribution"

A Sub panel may do the trick for you, or, you may be able to swap out some of your current breakers for tandem ones.

Your electrician will be able to tell you the best option.

PILOON · Mar 1, 2006

Since I wired my own home I made many small circuits hence rapidly filled my pannel.
Example kitchen alone has 10 breakers, one per half duplex outlet (I can run 10 kettles at once) and my shop has 2 wall circuits with lighting seperate.

It is very common to add a sub pannel however a large breaker from the main is generally used to protect the capacity of the sub pannel.(ex 60amp sub with perhaps 12 110v breakers/circuits).

My garage/shop is wired as such with a 60CB at main with a 12 circuit sub in the shop linked with #6 wire.
All welding and power tools then run from the sub pannel.

If a sub is piped (conduit) directly to the main then the large breaker can be ommitted. (check local codes on this)

Hope this helps.

Newer homes use many more breakers than in the past particularily in kitchen.
Dish washer, fridge, microwave all are on own breakers as well as water pumps and airconditioners.
A good electrician will also put only one outlet per circuit in the kitchen because of all the appliences we now use.

That being said, even with baseboard electric heat 200 amps is still adaquate for most homes.
Today some 200 amp pannels carry 40 and even 60 breakers to allow all these circuits.
Remember that not all is on at the same time!

Stick with SQD (cheapest) but add sub pannel.

For HT system you could use a 'computer grade' circuit that boasts a different grounding path. (Identified by an orange colored outlet) This is to eliminate ground loops.

Hope I have helped a bit.
Good luck.

Richard · Mar 1, 2006

Thanks everyone. I'll count the number of breakers (and I suppose their size?) to see if my current board might be a candidate for a diet. I AM on a heat pump so between the breakers for the compressors outside and the air handlers inside, perhaps I've used more than typical.

riptides · Mar 1, 2006

I just want to tag along Richard's posting here, Sorry Richard.

I will be facing the electricians soon with the farmhouse demo/remodel/renovation.

I would like to bury my lines to the house, and will call the electric company for this.

The service to the house - Is it a standard? I mean the power that is provided, is it regulated or how does one get more power?

I am interested in re-doing ALL the wiring on the farm. We do not trust it, and a lot of the buildings have power, and well the barn is like 100 years old. So qualified people will be used and what not....

With this I am interested in sub-panels in strategic buildings . The barn for instance will not have a sub-panel, but will be fed by the milk house. The cottage will have a sub-panel and will feed that area of the farm...

Is this a logical and safe way to approach my project?

-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Volfandt · Mar 1, 2006

I was in a similar situation a couple yrs ago. I added a new den and remodeled the kitchen (tripled it size) and my panel was full also. I already had the dual half size breakers so that wasn't an option.
I had an electrician add a subpanel next to the original and it's worked out fine for me.
He put in a 100a breaker in the main panel for a connection point for the feeds to the subpanel and another 100a breaker in the subpanel to act as it's main. He had to move 2-twin breakers(4 circuits) out of the main panel over to the subpanel inorder to make room for the 100a breaker.

This was the less expensive way to expand my electrical service as well as it didn't take my working service down to expand. (except for the 4 circuits that were moved over).

As for changeing out your main to a larger panel, you'll be looking at a full day of down time and unless your electrician will do it "hot" or disconnect electrical service before your meter, you may have to get KUB involved also. Not to mention the cost of a much larger panel that your present breakers will work in.
Adding a subpanel is a whole lot easier and cheaper... JMHO.

I now have plenty of spare spaces for future future expansion.

Good luck
Volfandt

Richard · Mar 1, 2006

I did a tally this morning & this is what I found:

200 amp box

9 single throw 20 amp breakers
1 single throw 15 amp
6 "twin" 20's (as in two 20 amp on a single slot breaker)
2 double pole (220) 50 amp (range/basement air unit)
3 double pole (220) 30 amp (attic air/water heater/blank! (??))
1 double pole (220) 20 amp "outdoor lights"

I'm a bit confused as I don't HAVE any outdoor lights other than those which I've got plugged into a low voltage system. Also, with the "blank" double pole 30, I wonder if there is really anything attached. I might have more slots than I realized (outdoor lights & the blank) /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Guess I won't know that until I or someone takes the cover off. My brother in law is an electician and is the one that did it but I don't expect him to remember what he did.

So, without taking the cover off yet, is this panel capable of more "twin" breakers (I don't know their technical name) or is this box fairly used up?

I know the total amperage of the breakers can be more than the total rating of the box but... 645 amps total on a 200 amp box??? What's the guideline?

_RaT_ · Mar 1, 2006

You don't add up all the breakers current ratings to arrive at the power rating for your home. The likelyhood of you loading each and every breaker to its capacity is quite remote and even if you could, the 200 amp main is there to protect the buss from being overloaded. It would appear you can as I mentioned, swap out some single 120V breakers for twins and maybe even some 240V breakers for quads depending on the panel manufactuers. By taking the 9 120V breakers and replacing these full size breakers with twins, you can free up 4 spaces and add one extra circuit. I would get your electrician to look at the panel, you cannot always install twins in a panel, some will limit you. I would also verify that all those 20 amp 120V breakers are in fact connected to #12 wire (or larger). If they are connected to #14, you need to connect those to 15 amp breakers. An electrician can verify your wire breaker size which can be confusing. The standard rule of #14 wire to a 15 amp, #12 to a 20 amp, #10 to a 30 amp breaker applies until you get into loads like the air conditioner where a start up load of 100 amps is not uncommon but a running load of 20 amps would be typical. This is where some exceptions to the wire/amp sizes come in. Based on what you have provided and not knowing your panel, I think your going to be OK. The worst case scenario would be to add a sub panel. I don't like the look of more panels on a house and always try to install a sub panel in the home centrally located to eliminate the long runs.

_RaT_ · Mar 1, 2006

Mike, having the sub panels is a good way to go. You may need to have disconnects near any equiment that does not have a breaker within site of the machine. Your power company will determine if an upgrade to their feeder wire is needed. They can get by with much smaller wire then we can. You will typically install the conduit(s) from your house to the pole and they will pull and connect the wire. They will determine the approprite size wire based on panel size and wire length. Power is regulated in that you get 60 cycle or Hz and approximately 120/240V sine wave power. The voltage varies throughout the day by a few volts or so you hope. You can get as much power as you need.