Synthetic Lubricants in Power Tracs

[Charlie_Iliff]

<font color="red"> one quart of Case HTO additive to the 10 gallon reservoir </font>
Although I've not seen a spec sheet, my understanding is that the Case additive is to add anti-wear components, including zinc dithiophosphate. I see on Amsoil's website that zinc is listed in the hydraulic fluids, but not the motor oils.
I don't know why Power Trac (and Case) specify motor oil instead of hydraulic fluid, and don't yet know if Power Trac adds something like the Case additive before shipping the units. I have seen a couple of reports that they add something.
So: is our best combination a synthetic, not S rated, and a zinc dithiophosphate additive?

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I recently saw a reference on the Parker site to seals used in their wheel motors where nitrile seals are fine w/ petroleum based oil but if using ester-based synthetics one should spec viton seals (shaft and o-ring) in their motors...so now I'm wondering, if my 422 uses White motors, what kind of seals do they use? White appears to use Viton seals in most of their app's...So looks like synthetic hydraulic fluid will be fine there, but a remaining question for PT tech is what kind of seals are used throughout the "rest" of the system...Mobil makes a synthetic hydraulic fluid as well as the petro-based Mobil DTE22,24,26 (which appears to be used by some man. e.g., Parker, for it performance testing).

 

[duane]

Charlie,

It's a good question, why motor oils vs hydraulic fluids. Could it be that motor oils are multi-viscosity and cover the range of expected ambient and operating temps better than hydraulic fluid. I had convinced myself that at my next oil change for the hydraulic system, it was going to be a diesel rated oil with Case HTO. Always open to disucssion though!

I like synthetics. I believe in commercial applications, you will see the performance difference. I'm not sure as a residental owner, I will see the difference. I regularly get 200 - 250k out of my vehicles on regular oils and fluids with no problems. After that mileage, I'm tired of the vehicle and the body is starting to degrade.

Other than cost, the only issue I have with synthetics is the propensity for oil seapage past seals. Todays seals are compatible with synthetics, but the molecular structure on a synthetic gives it great penetrating capabilities. The penetrating capabilities give the upper hand regarding lubrication characteristics, but I don't like the oil drips on the floor.

Just my thoughts, I could argue both sides.

Duane

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

<font color="red"> the only issue I have with synthetics is the propensity for oil seapage past seals. Todays seals are compatible with synthetics, but the molecular structure on a synthetic gives it great penetrating capabilities. The penetrating capabilities give the upper hand regarding lubrication characteristics, but I don't like the oil drips on the floor </font>

Years ago, I represented Mobil in the first case they took to trial where someone claimed Mobil 1 ruined their engine. Before that, they had bought each car and done extensive testing to make sure the Mobil 1 wasn't the culprit. In those and ours, the Mobil 1 was superb. Damage occurred either because someone forgot to put oil in, or, as in my case, the drain plug was left loose and fell out. (Evidence: new drain plug and Mobil 1 analysis showing the oil had never been in a running engine.)
Long lead in to my deciding after that to use Mobil 1 in a new Ford van. I used it only 130,000 mi, and it's still running somewhere, but Mobil 1 found ways to get out a number of times, the most dramatic being the oil gallery gaskets under the intake manifold. I really like synthetics, but as I posted earlier, I might have to live to be over 200 to reap a financial benefit with my PT1845. I'd like to know, however, if there's any compatibility problem, and will keep inquiring. If there isn't, I may just change, despite the expense, because I know the stuff is better. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[MossRoad]

Charlie & Duane,
I know a person that collects antique cars. He sings the praises of the Kohler Command engine. He has one in his wife's mower. I told him I switched the engine oil to Mobil 1 at the first oil change and he said good. However, he told me to keep an eye on the oil level. He said that in his new engines he never has a problem, but in one of his older engines, it seems to just disappear. He can't figure out where it is going. His guess was that it was slipping past seals or rings somewhere, probably due to wear the engine incurred in its past life. He said he uses Mobil 1 in his antiques and new machines, but just make sure to check the oil level before each use(common sense). I've had it in my Kohler for about 75 hours and don't appear to have lost a drop. I'm seriously considering switching to it in my hydraulic system some time this summer, after our discussions here play out. I can find it for about $4.00 per quart, so it will be about $160.00 for the 10 gallons that it requires. I figure, whats $160.00 every few years over the life of the machine? I bought it with the intent of keeping it until it is no longer repairable( I, too buy cars and drive them until the body rots off... my last new car was in 1989, a Cavalier that looks pretty rough now /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif).

So, I have to read that article that you posted(haven't had time yet) and see what's this info on the additive that might be required.

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

MR _ I thought I'd replied, but my post evaporated.
Yesterday, completed the 150 hr., changed engine oil to Amsoil heavy duty diesel synthetic. It didn't all escape in three hours use today. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I'll try to get an answer from Terry tomorrow about what they'd recommend for the hydraulic system if money were no object.

 

[MossRoad]

<font color="blue"> if money were no object. </font>

There's a thought! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

A Couple of Questions answered by Terry Estep at Power Trac:

Q: Why multigrade motor oil rather than hydraulic fluid?
A: Motor oil works nearly as well, is cheaper to buy, and most importantly, is available everywhere. Some, although perhaps not all, hydraulic fluids may have additives incompatible with others, and Power Trac wanted to be sure that the owner could confidently add whatever was locally available. The multiple viscosity makes motor oil good for year-round use, although 5 W 30 is still significantly better in the cold than 10 W 40, for instance.

Q: Does Power Trac put an additive in the hydraulic systems?
A: They used to, but increases in cost and questionable real benefit caused them to discontinue.

Q: Are there any seals anywhere in the systems that might not be compatible with synthetics?
A: Terry didn't know, but said he would check and see if anyone in engineering knew of any.

Q: Would synthetic oil be better in the hydraulic system?
A: Subject to determining that no seals would be hurt, Terry thinks so, but he isn't sure that it's worth the money. He did caution that you can't get all the hydraulic oil out, so your new synthetic will be diluted a bit by the original oil. (Terry uses a blend in his truck, and thinks that might be good for hydraulic systems, as well.)

 

[kcook]

One up side on the amsoil, its pourable to -47! I ran it all winter in my Dodge and it ran well, increased the gas milage!

KC

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

<font color="red"> One up side on the amsoil, its pourable to -47! </font>

I guess that's good, but if it's -47, I want to be somewhere else reading about it in the paper, not outside pouring something into my Power Trac, /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif