T8 Lights loosing their brightness?

[Zerk]

But again, are you ahead or behind for all you spent on new equipment and labor?

Just cause something is cheaper to run, doesnt mean it is a good idea to rip out exisiting equipment. Don't like changing bulbs? But you spend time putting in new fixtures.

You can't look at feelings.

 

[ultrarunner]

At my old job, we had off-peak electric... it cost cheaper at night. So we installed ice tanks, made ice at night when the rates were cheaper, and used the ice to cool both the air and some liquid cooled machinery during the day. It saved huge amounts of money.

Toured the ATT facility and they had an ice plant... it provided a lot of savings...

Only place I have seen one up close... all these ice cubes floating in ice water to cool the building in the heat of the summer...

At the GAS plant they saved a lot by signing on for 15 minute shutdown... and it did happen when the grid was taxed a few times during a heat wave...

 

[CobyRupert]

At my old job, we had off-peak electric... it cost cheaper at night. So we installed ice tanks, made ice at night when the rates were cheaper, and used the ice to cool both the air and some liquid cooled machinery during the day. It saved huge amounts of money.

Demand metering is the next phase of (home) "smart meters". And then comes smart appliances that can communicate and coordinate with the demand pricing of the smart meter to run during off peak hours. Monitor it and set it all up using an app on your smart phone.

Now imagine a (deregulated) world where many people have an electric "car", that also serves as an energy storage unit (for your solar and wind power...and utility). Say you only need to use 15% of the cars storage charge for your daily commute.
You can select when to charge it up, or sell power back to the grid depending on market rates (as tracked/triggered by an app on your smart phone). The market would be influenced by weather, if the wind is going to blow, if the sun is going to shine, or if there's a long holiday weekend w/ trips approaching, etc..

Depending on your lifestyle and ability to sell during peak usage time, and buy during off-peak, you could make money.

It would do to the centralized utility/distribution market model what desktop computers did in the 90's to the giant central processors that occupied full basements.

Love market solutions.

 

[MossRoad]

Demand metering is the next phase of (home) "smart meters". And then comes smart appliances that can communicate and coordinate with the demand pricing of the smart meter to run during off peak hours. Monitor it and set it all up using an app on your smart phone.

Now imagine a (deregulated) world where many people have an electric "car", that also serves as an energy storage unit (for your solar and wind power...and utility). Say you only need to use 15% of the cars storage charge for your daily commute.
You can select when to charge it up, or sell power back to the grid depending on market rates (as tracked/triggered by an app on your smart phone). The market would be influenced by weather, if the wind is going to blow, if the sun is going to shine, or if there's a long holiday weekend w/ trips approaching, etc..

Depending on your lifestyle and ability to sell during peak usage time, and buy during off-peak, you could make money.

It would do to the centralized utility/distribution market model what desktop computers did in the 90's to the giant central processors that occupied full basements.

Love market solutions.

Businesses are moving back to centralized processors either owned or space rented at server farms. It costs too much to purchase and maintain individual desktops and software. The same thing is going to happen with electric utilities eventually. Someone has to pay for the infrastructure to connect it all together. Once the proper fees are determined to cover the costs of the infrastructure, and they are applied to the end-users, the real costs of having 127,000,000 power systems ( that's how many single family homes are in the U.S.) to purchase and maintain VS the real costs of just several thousand centralized power generation facilities ( or about 250-300 nuclear power plants ) will come to light. The economies of scale will win out and we'll still be using centralized power generation in most of the country in 50 years.

 

[CobyRupert]

Someone does have to pay for the infrastructure. That's the problem with the current market model. As more people abandon it, or use it minimally to supplement their own energy production the revenues decrease, while the money it takes to maintain these systems remains fixed (stranded).

But think about how oversized this infrastructure needs to be when the market doesn't care what the demand is. I pay say ~13 cents a KW-hr whether my utility is buying it for 5 cents or 18 cents. Right now the average load on a distribution line might be 2 megawatts, but needs to be built for a peak of 20 megawatts for those 20 minutes that occur on 4 days a year because of the market model. If the market is an instant reflection of the supply/demand, then such overcapacity isn't required. Plus it's a natural tendency of markets to want to pass the risk on to the consumer.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I saw a documentary about a British power plant. They were watching some very popular TV show, getting ready, because they knew, the second it was over, the Brits would plug in their Tea Kettles and Demand would soar..

 

[MossRoad]

Someone does have to pay for the infrastructure. That's the problem with the current market model. As more people abandon it, or use it minimally to supplement their own energy production the revenues decrease, while the money it takes to maintain these systems remains fixed (stranded).

But think about how oversized this infrastructure needs to be when the market doesn't care what the demand is. I pay say ~13 cents a KW-hr whether my utility is buying it for 5 cents or 18 cents. Right now the average load on a distribution line might be 2 megawatts, but needs to be built for a peak of 20 megawatts for those 20 minutes that occur on 4 days a year because of the market model. If the market is an instant reflection of the supply/demand, then such overcapacity isn't required. Plus it's a natural tendency of markets to want to pass the risk on to the consumer.

This is one of the issues with America. People always talk about "American energy", "American oil reserves", "American" this and that.... but the reality is none of these things are nationally owned. There's no such thing as "the American power grid". All that means is it's a power grid located in America. It doesn't belong to Americans. (the slight exception being co-ops.) It's a necessity item, but it's consumer driven.

For example... there's two major railroads that cross over each other here where I live in South Bend, Indiana. That's at the far northern border, just below Michigan, and about 100 miles east of Chicago. On the Norfolk and Southern line, several times a day, every day, I see fully loaded coal trains around a mile long traveling through northern Indiana. They are destined for coal fired power plants. That seems normal, eh?

Well, these trains are fully loaded and passing each other going in opposite directions, some going east and some going west. Why? We don't produce any coal in this area. If this were "American" coal going to "American" electric power plants, they wouldn't be passing each other on a daily basis. They'd go to the nearest power plants, for efficiency's sake. But they aren't efficient, because they're market driven. It's a huge waste of energy.

I can only imaging the same thing happening on the power grid on a daily basis, only instead of trains on tracks its electrons on wires zipping all over the place, sold to the highest bidder, instead of being used in the most efficient manner.

 

[dnw64]

Very true... I was able to shave some by staggering motor start loads... someone had everything set to start at 5 am... the surge was noticeable... a little planning was able to save some of the demand charge.

Our biggest motor (40 hp) is run off a VFD and there is no surge - max KW is at full speed.

Our midsize motors (10-20 hp) use star delta which helps, and on the two main machines that have 3-5 such motors we wait until one motor is at full speed before starting the next.

 

[Streetcar]

In southern Ohio we are charged a use fee for power used and fee for supply fee.
In Cincinnati they are replacing their original led traffic signals as they have significantly dimmed in the six years they have been installed

 

[dnw64]

But again, are you ahead or behind for all you spent on new equipment and labor?

Short answer:

Ahead.


Long answer:

T8 FL = 32 watts
T8 LED = 18 watts

Difference of 14 watts

Our combined KWHr and Demand charges averages about $0.25/KWHr.

One tube saves $0.0035 every hour x 2250 hours per year = $7.88 saved. Tubes cost $7.00 after rebate.

So within one year the equipment has paid for itself. As I said before, even though the labor DID cost something, I don't consider it relevant.

Every year thereafter each tube saves me another 8 bucks. We're a pretty small company, so that $2400 feels very nice in my pocket (less the increased taxes...).