TC33DA - How to turn engine over by hand?

CycloneDr · Dec 8, 2022

Hi all,

I have a TC33DA with around 1900hrs. It is currently "dead" in my shop, where I parked it after plowing some snow. Later on the same day, I discovered it wouldn't start. I have a characteristic clunk from the starter solenoid, and nothing else. Charged the battery. Checked the oil and the level was fine. Based on some research, I thought I'd give the starter signal/relay combo that is quite common a try. After about an hour of crimping and wiring, along with a trip to NAPA to get a 12V 40A 4-pin relay, I gave it a go, to no avail. 'Clunk' when the key turns. I installed an in-line fuse and I blew the 5A, 10A, and 15A fuses that I tried. The 20A hasn't blown, yet. I've tried hammering on the starter via a prybar, since the bucket arm is in the way. I also tried an air hammer to force some life into the starter, to no avail. I now believe the starter decided to crap out, and I have a new one on order arriving in the next couple days from Amazon. I have not yet pulled off the old starter. I will report if this fixes it.

Now to the topic question. Is it possible, with the engine and everything else on the tractor, to turn it over by hand? Is there a nut I can put a socket on? I tried pulling a little on the belt, but figured that wasn't a good idea.
Thanks!

TractorTech · Dec 8, 2022

The only thing you can do is put a socket on the crankshaft nut on the front....that is, if there is room.

Probably easier to take the starter out and turn flywheel with a screwdriver.

Halftrack · Dec 8, 2022

I would think you could engage the PTO and put a stub PTO shaft on it and then turn it with a pry bar or wrench if you are just wanting to nudge the crankshaft. Remember to turn it clockwise looking at the shaft. I hope you are not trying to start it this way, so make sure key and fuel are OFF.

dlctcg · Dec 8, 2022

There are a couple of things you should check:

#1 You should check to see what voltage you are getting at the starter solenoid when the ignition key is in the start position... It should to be 12v, but might not be.

#2 Have you checked your battery cables?

If not, I would definitely test your positive & negative cables... They are known to look fine but be corroded internally.

From one of my previous posts:

Cable Test:
Older New Holland battery cables often corrode inside the terminal where it is sometimes impossible to see; not sure it was an issue with your particular yr / model... You will often have voltage so everything seems good. (gauges & all are working). So you will have voltage but they will not supply the required Amperage.

You can test if there is an issue with your existing battery cables pretty simply.

Remove the negative battery cable & then take a negative jumper cable wire and place it on the bare negative post of your tractor battery. Connect the other end to a solid clean ground of the tractor (bare metal location). Try starting the tractor & see if that makes a difference...

If that doesn't change anything you can do the same process on the positive post. Disconnect the Negative jumper from the Battery terminal. Then using your positive jumper cable attach one end to where the positive battery cable connects to the starter (connect this end first), and the other end to the positive battery post (last). Make sure the jumper cable is not able to arc to near by metal. Now reconnect the Negative jumper cable to the battery & try starting the tractor again & see if that changes anything...

Doing this process you basically bypassed the battery cables on the machine, and then can troubleshoot from there.

That is where I would start first... let us know the results & we can go from there....

nyone · Dec 10, 2022

You didnt try to jump it?

CycloneDr · Dec 11, 2022

Regarding the battery, I think it's fine. Multimeter showing 13V give or take. As part of the troubleshooting of the clunking solenoid issue, I removed and cleaned the ground and positive posts at the battery, as well as cleaned up all the ground locations on the tractor with a wire brush.

No, I am not trying to start the tractor by turning it over. Just a peace of mind thing that nothing is seized up. I don't think this is the case given the tractor ran fine a few hours before this all began.

My new starter hasn't arrived yet. I will update with what I find. I appreciate all your tips very much. Thanks!

TractorTech · Dec 11, 2022

Sounds as though the clunk is coming from the solenoid pulling in when energized, but the contacts are burned and not allowing a closed circuit to engage the starter.

RobertN · Dec 12, 2022

dlctcg said:
There are a couple of things you should check:

#1 You should check to see what voltage you are getting at the starter solenoid when the ignition key is in the start position... It should to be 12v, but might not be.

#2 Have you checked your battery cables?

If not, I would definitely test your positive & negative cables... They are known to look fine but be corroded internally.

From one of my previous posts:

Cable Test:
Older New Holland battery cables often corrode inside the terminal where it is sometimes impossible to see; not sure it was an issue with your particular yr / model... You will often have voltage so everything seems good. (gauges & all are working). So you will have voltage but they will not supply the required Amperage.

You can test if there is an issue with your existing battery cables pretty simply.

Remove the negative battery cable & then take a negative jumper cable wire and place it on the bare negative post of your tractor battery. Connect the other end to a solid clean ground of the tractor (bare metal location). Try starting the tractor & see if that makes a difference...

If that doesn't change anything you can do the same process on the positive post. Disconnect the Negative jumper from the Battery terminal. Then using your positive jumper cable attach one end to where the positive battery cable connects to the starter (connect this end first), and the other end to the positive battery post (last). Make sure the jumper cable is not able to arc to near by metal. Now reconnect the Negative jumper cable to the battery & try starting the tractor again & see if that changes anything...

Doing this process you basically bypassed the battery cables on the machine, and then can troubleshoot from there.

That is where I would start first... let us know the results & we can go from there....

This!

I had this issue on my old Kubota AND on my NH TC40D.

I put new cables on, and the starter spun over like it should. This happened on both of my tractors...

I then cut back the insulation on the old battery cables; there was significant corrosion under the insulation, that was not visible. It went like 4-6" up under the insulation. Cleaning the cable ends did not help at all...

FordnMassey · Dec 12, 2022

Hi,
To test if the motor is seized, a motor can also be turned by engaging the highest gear (fastest when driving) and pushing the tractor. On a small utility tractor like a Ford 3000 or Massey 35, each wheel turn is around 25 engine rpm when in top gear. So around 1/8th of a wheel turn should spin your motor 3 times. I can do this solo on the diesel and petrol (gasoline) tractors I own. For your safety, ensure it can't start.

dlctcg · Dec 12, 2022

CycloneDr said:
My new starter hasn't arrived yet. I will update with what I find.

Again, before throwing parts at it & just rabbit holing till it is fixed... see my post above & make sure you check -

#1 You should check to see what voltage you are getting at the starter solenoid when the ignition key is in the start position... It should to be 12v, but might not be. If it is not there is an issue...

#2 Have you checked your battery cables? These are know to go bad & internally corrode (where you can not see it)...

FordnMassey said:
To test if the motor is seized, a motor can also be turned by engaging the highest gear (fastest when driving) and pushing the tractor.

I maybe wrong but I don't think this will work with a Hydro machine

RalphVa · Dec 13, 2022

I used to rotate the crankshaft on our 65 hp 240D Benz with the fan blades to check the valves. Just press on the belt and use a fan blade down close to its shaft.

rScotty · Dec 13, 2022

RalphVa said:
I used to rotate the crankshaft on our 65 hp 240D Benz with the fan blades to check the valves. Just press on the belt and use a fan blade down close to its shaft.

I've done that on a lot of engines. Sometimes it works. Worth a try.
Most starter problems that are not battery & cable related are actually solenoid problems and not in the starter motor at all.
rScotty

Gator6x4 · Dec 13, 2022

The "Clunk" sound the OP is getting could also mean the engine is Hydro locked. If mine I would place a socket on the crankshaft bolt lead and use a breaker bar to rotate the engine to see is the engine rotates freely.

rScotty · Dec 13, 2022

Gator6x4 said:
The "Clunk" sound the OP is getting could also mean the engine is Hydro locked. If mine I would place a socket on the crankshaft bolt lead and use a breaker bar to rotate the engine to see is the engine rotates freely.

Nothng wrong with doing that, but hydro locking is much more rare and a much bigger deal than an electrical problem. If he can turn the engine a few degrees with fan and belt or socket I'd do that too.

The noise of a solenoid closeing is pretty distinctive - plus you can put your hand on it. Normally you don't hear the solenoid because the starter begins turning a fraction of a second later and drowns it out. The fact that he can even hear the solenoid enough to identify it means that the solemoid is not passing current.

If it clicks, the solenoid either has burnt internal contacts or is not getting starter amps in the first place.
The standard test is to take a battery jumper and jump from positive on battery to the starter heavy amp input terminal. If it cranks, it is the solenoid. If not, it's elsewhere.

Next test is jump with a known good battery and cables. If it still doesn't crank it is the starter, usually the brushes.
Either one is a quick diagnosis followed by a quick easy repair. Done dozens.

Gator6x4 · Dec 13, 2022

rScotty said:
Nothng wrong with doing that, but hydro locking is much more rare and a much bigger deal than an electrical problem. If he can turn the engine a few degrees with fan and belt or socket I'd do that too.

The noise of a solenoid closeing is pretty distinctive - plus you can put your hand on it. Normally you don't hear the solenoid because the starter begins turning a fraction of a second later and drowns it out. The fact that he can even hear the solenoid enough to identify it means that the solemoid is not passing current.

If it clicks, the solenoid either has burnt internal contacts or is not getting starter amps in the first place.
The standard test is to take a battery jumper and jump from positive on battery to the starter heavy amp input terminal. If it cranks, it is the solenoid. If not, it's elsewhere.

Next test is jump with a known good battery and cables. If it still doesn't crank it is the starter, usually the brushes.
Either one is a quick diagnosis followed by a quick easy repair. Done dozens.

Agree with your post. The fact it is an older unit was hot when turned off and has been setting and the "Clunk" sound could be the starter engaging and the engine not rotating because a defective head gasket filled one of the cylinders with coolant while setting. If one can rotate the engine would eliminate this possibility and as you say focus the probability of the no start problem being the starter.

rScotty · Dec 13, 2022

Gator6x4 said:
Agree with your post. The fact it is an older unit was hot when turned off and has been setting and the "Clunk" sound could be the starter engaging and the engine not rotating because a defective head gasket filled one of the cylinders with coolant while setting. If one can rotate the engine would eliminate this possibility and as you say focus the probability of the no start problem being the starter.

Yes, after a lifetime of mechanical work we learn to include preface each diagnosis with "probably".

ROUSTABOUT · Dec 13, 2022

Halftrack said:
I would think you could engage the PTO and put a stub PTO shaft on it and then turn it with a pry bar or wrench if you are just wanting to nudge the crankshaft. Remember to turn it clockwise looking at the shaft. I hope you are not trying to start it this way, so make sure key and fuel are OFF.

That'll be kinda hard since engine turns three times faster than pto.

tmeric7 · Dec 13, 2022

13V seems pretty good, but I'd measure that when trying to start the tractor. Seeing what the battery can produce under load is helpful in this case.

As was mentioned, battery cables on these tractors have given others problems. When I added my starter relay I also replaced the cable ends for good measure.