"Teacher" splain this

[dummy]

Re:

Pabst Blue Ribbon and Public Broadcast Radio?

 

[MikePA]

Re:

Thanks, w-h. I read your other post. My deepest sympathies to your and yours. /w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif

 

[RanchMan]

Re:

Franz -

I understand your frustration with the NEA, and to a degree, agree with it. However, I feel you are unfortunately diminishing your "case" by some of methods you used to make your point. I doubt it will effect on your "discussion style," but hopefully something “good” will come of it. Here are some of the problems I see with your approach...(and remember, this is coming from someone who could be perceived as being on "your side"! )

<font color=blue>The question that all Americans need to ask is who is the easiest to victimize, a kid who doesn't know he's getting screwed out of his education, or a parent who got robbed of his?</font color=blue>

Conspiracy theories aside, you are basically insulting everyone out there that didn’t graduate in 1960 as you did. Not a good way to start off if you are trying to convince anyone of your position. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif ‘Course if you are just wanting to espouse your view and care less if anyone takes you seriously, you’re off to a good start.

<font color=blue>If the Education System is working why do so many kids going to college need remedial education? </font color=blue>

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif How many is "so many?" I'm not denying that yes, unfortunately some kids get "passed on" to upper grades without learning their "ABC's", but I fail to subscribe to the concept that it is at epidemic levels and the majority of kids who graduate high school have no idea that "2+2=4."

I have no idea how much interaction you have with high school or collge age kids, but based on my experience, I'd say you are "way off base." Not every kid is like the ones that make Lenno's "Jay walking" segment (remember, they take the HIGHLIGHTS of their interviews and broadcast them.)

I'll agree that there are "More than there should be" as far as kids requiring remedial education, but any is "too many" in my book. Once again, I think the "baby is being thorwn out with the bath water."

<font color=blue>The NY Board of Regents has admitted the knowledge content represented in the 2002 exams is less than 40% of the knowledge content of the 1960 exam in the same subject. Worse yet, many NEA member teachers were unable to pass the Regents exams in the subjects they were paid to teach.</font color=blue>

I can't comment on the validity of this or not - I simply don't know. That being said, I'm curious how "knowledge content" was "measured." I mean, what is the "appropriate way" to measure this? Sure, some things haven't changed since 1960 - 1+1 still equals 2. "Mendicant" is still spelled the same way, etc. But what about science?

Let's see - back in 1960 the prevalent theory as to how the craters were formed on the moon was that they were extinct volcanos - a "fact" that has long since changed. What about the technology that has changed? Computers take up a desk top and cost in the hundreds instead of taking up a room and costing millions. (btw, the personal computer - something you use and apparently "benefit" by using, was essentially invented by a couple of those college "slackers" - not the "wise gray hairs" at IBM as many would think.)

What is the "appropriate" way to measure "knowledge content?" While I agree basic skills (the proverbial "three R's") are fundamental, certain areas of true knowledge (again, excluding the PC "junk" - e.g. that isn't "real" knowledge) have certainly grown since 1960. Yes, there has been the introduction of a bunch of PC psyco-babble, but with the "bad" has come considerable "good." After all, a lot of the conveniences in life you enjoy actually have come from those younger than you who “invented them” despite the fact that they apparently graduated from an “ever degrading” school system.

<font color=blue>Mayhaps those in their 30s and 40s ought to open their eyes and ask questions.</font color=blue>

/w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif Boy - this really hurts your case. Basically you are insulting ANYONE who is younger than you. Realize it or not, it comes across incredibly arrogant and condescending - basically saying that there is a direct correlation between age and wisdom. While an individual will generally increase their personal wisdom as they age, it is hardly accurate to say that only those who are older have a monopoly on it.

There are PLENTY of "young folks" "wise beyond their years" and "old folks" who lack basic maturity and logical thinking skills - no, I'm afraid this argument reeks of "When I was in school, we had to walk through waist high snow, up hill, barefoot!” It adds an impression of deceit to your case, even if you are being “honest.”

Like it or not, not every state in the union is a “right to work” state. Unions (in whatever industry) exist - like ‘em or not, they aren’t going away any time soon. Call membership a "necessary evil" if you will. If someone wants to live in an non-right to work state yet stay in a particular profession (you choose - maybe construction worker in New Jersey? - doesn't matter), they either join the Union or don't get the job. Is that "Right?" -- Not in "my book," but that's the way it is. Contrary to your apparent opinion, not every teacher out there became one just to “shirk” the draft - some actually like doing it and see it as an honorable profession. And yes, some belong to the NEA because they want to work, not because they want to stand up and be counted with the "official" NEA ideals.

Again, I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your feelings on the NEA, nor am I implying that every teacher is a "good, honest, intelligent, moral individual." I’m just saying that if you want to make your case and be taken seriously (without alienating “both” sides), your methods need a bit more refinement.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

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Franz-after reading some of your posts, Ive decided to try to not piss you off.

 

[Phred]

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Franz,

I agree the NEA is a disgrace. Not to blame the members since some have no choice.

For example consider albert enstien. A Ph.D. in physics and a nobel laurete. Probably 5 years of physics study beyond the BS.
Now consider the physics BA graduate from the local community colleague with a 2.0 GPA.
Who understands physics better and is more well equiped to teach seniors in high school physics?
If the guy from the community colleague takes a few education courses then the NEA will deem him a better candidate and poor albert will be without a job!

Consider a person with a Ph.D. in chemsitry and twenty years of expereince as a colleague professor, but no "education" course work. The NEA would deem this person a poorer candidate to teach high school chemistry than the person with a BA in chemistry and a few education classes!

Go figure!

The argument is that the education courses are the key. Come on. Its all about restricting the pool of job applicant to protect NEA members, instead of educating students.

Fred

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: NEA scam

Fred, we couldn't agree more. My wife can teach advanced practice nursing in a college, but isn't allowed to teach anything in a Government school.
The city school system here just fired a totally ineffective superintendant, who spent more time traveling to conferences where he lectured, than he did in his office. They hired him after he bankrupted Boston's Government schools, and he bankrupted Rochester's schools as well. Part of his termination agreement is that Rochester can only give him positive recommendations. He's leaving with over $250,000 as a settlement, and when he was asked by a reporter if he felt guilty because he was getting a quarter million when a lot of employees no longer have jobs, his response was "there's no room for guilt, I had a contract". http://www.10nbc.com/index.asp?template=item&story_id=4148
One of his biggest supporters was the Rochester Teachers Union, an NEA affiliate.
The NEA president made NEAs position clear when he said "when kids pay union dues I'll be concerned about kids being educated".
The argument I have to belong because otherwise I won't have a job holds about as much water as a Nurenburg defendant claiming he was just following orders.
Union membership groth in the last 20 years has skyrocketed in the government sector, while it has lost ground in the private sector, for a reason. The public has been hoodwinked, and is being pushed around by these unions.
We are constantly being bombarded with various arguments that more dollars per student is the solution, so NEA members can get raises. If dollars spent per student was a solution Washington DC government schools would currently be graduating the most brilliant kids in America, but we all know that ain't happening.
Walter Williams has stated repeatedly that if the Clan did to US education what the NEA has done there would be riots in the streets, and he is right.
NEA gets away with their act because NEA is a huge political contributor, and politicians love $$$$$$.

 

[jhburke]

Re: NEA scam

My wife taught for 34 years high school level. I was her mate for 32 of them. When I married her, she started getting her masters degree. She is and was in a profession not a factory job. She busted her butt to help all of her kids. She busted chops on anyone who didn"t follow the rules. When the school had to drop the existing dress code, she had kids going to their lockers before and after her class to change clothes. She told them she was teaching a profession and how the dressed was part of their grade. That was when you worked in store, bank, or office and you didn't go in looking like you were going to the beach or camping. By the way when I was alot younger I liked the beach and camping. She hated the thoughts of unionizing. But the school board who was about half union members forced them into unionizing in self defense. Here is an example. Teachers were required to ride school buses to events as chaparons. This was when the union pay for common laborers was about 14.00 an hour. For 6 or 8 hours the chaparon was paid 5.00. The excuse was they weren't working. But if anything happened wrong all the BS fell on the teacher. You couldn't even get any of the parents to help share the responsibility. I only have a high school degree plus what I have picked up from School of Hard Knocks. For the good teachers it has only went downhill since. You have slackers in any profession and job. Would say sorry for the rant, but I'm not.

 

[Chuck52]

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Phred,

This is going a bit astray from the original subject of this thread, which was about some objectionable material in NEA suggested lesson plans about 9/11. As I said earlier, I looked through some of those plans and couldn't find what was described in the newspaper article...maybe I missed those parts or maybe they had been revised, I don't know. However, I really do have some insight into your complaint about how the NEA would rank teaching qualifications.

I have a BS in Chemistry, with a math minor, and a PhD in Biochemistry. No education courses. I can't comment on Einstein's teaching abilities, but I am familiar with the teaching of quite a few college/university PhD-type teachers. I have taught introductory chemistry classes, though mostly I taught bioichemistry. My students seemed to do OK and I got decent teaching evaluations. At the university level we teach to adults. Data is presented, hopefully in a way that makes it both interesting and understandable, to adults. I think I could do a reasonable job teaching chemistry to a class of motivated and intelligent high school students. The intelligent part would probably not be a problem; the motivated part could be. There seems to me to be a significant trend in this country towards an anti-intellectualism which discourages kids from wanting to be the kind of nerd that understands the sciences. However, I'm sure that in most high schools I could find a subset of students to whom I could impart my incredible chemical insights successfully. I couldn't teach upper level math, math which I had as an undergraduate, to save my life. I also have, over the years and with my own children, proven to my satisfaction that I would be a miserable failure at teaching the kind of math I can explain reasonably well to younger kids. Of my three children, I was probably of some help in algebra to one. One just couldn't seem to get what I was trying to explain, no matter how I tried. One seemed to benefit from my help, though I can't be sure. One didn't need my lame explanations at all and made his A's without me. My point is that teaching children, especially young children, really does require special abilities, and those abilities can be very much separate from the kind of in-depth understanding of the subject matter that is supposed to come with a PhD. Education courses are supposed to teach how to teach. I'll bet some of the classes future teachers have to take are pretty lame, but I'll also bet some really do help the future teacher understand how to impart knowledge to his young victims.

Mrs. Smith (really, that was her name) did a pretty good job teaching me high school physics. She may have been like my sister, who was a history major in college but ended up teaching mostly junior high science. My sister did an excellent job preparing her students because she was an excellent teacher. I doubt Mrs. Smith would have understood much of Einstein's deeper thought processes, but I don't know if Einstein could have done a better job than she at explaining simple machines to my high school physics class.

Now, rambling along on my second cup of coffee....can only people who have had the proper education classes teach children effectively? Of course not. There are any number of hone-schoolers who teach their kids very well. I don't think I could do that, without totally dedicating myself to the project. Since I sent my kids to public schools expecting that the schools would do most of the grunt work in educating them, I'm glad their teachers were required to take some classes in how to teach, since I am sure that I would have needed those classes myself to do their job. And of course, as is my style, I will stipulate that some of the education classes teachers have to take are probably crap. That's the nature of the beast. The many theories of how to teach math, spelling, etc. are one product of research done in university Education departments. Anyone trying to devise better ways to impart knowledge to kids will come up with some good ideas and some that bite. Watching the process from the outside, it is natural to ask why they don't get it right the first time. I mean, after all, don't all of us always get our projects right the first time?

Chuck

 

[Ozarker]

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Not sure I agree with you on this one. I spent a number of years as a military instructor, which is nothing more than a teacher who teaches soldiers......and has absolute control over the students /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif.

I had to go to school to learn how to do that job. Being competent in the field simply isn't enough. You have to be able to convert your knowledge into a presentation that can be understood by the student. If you can't hold the students attention and break it down into a way that he can get it, you can't teach him anything.

I knew many who were undisputed experts in their field but simply couldn't teach. Being good at something doesn't necessarily mean that you will be good at passing that information on to someone else.

 

[Will_C]

Re: NEA scam

I guess I really don't understand the comparision between the fact that I am required in N.Y. state to belong to the union (NEA) being tantamount to following orders in a holocaust camp. I certainly agree that there are significant problems in education. I am in there everyday attempting to adress them. If I was not a union member, I could not be working toward the goal of helping kids. I am proud of my profession, I am proud of my efforts, and I am embarrassed of the union . I could choose to not belong and pay an agency fee that is 3.00 less than union dues (yearly) . I was advised that this course would lead to prejudicial treatment by some of my fellow teachers, and I would lose any voice on local school issues. Under these circumstances, I really resent being labeled a **** because I am a union member.