The Sorry State of Today's Journalism

[TripleR]

I totally agree with this!!!!! In Missouri, if we had 2 or 3 or 4 locations where academy type hands on training could be incorporated into the CCW training I believe it would sort this out. The true Sheep Dogs would rise to the top and the Sheep would realize their position.

I've spent days and days and days of training in these types of scenarios. Even the most avid Sheep Dog will face his/her maximum capabilities and tolerances. Which, when you think about it, is the intent.

I find it a bit disturbing that CCW training does not do this. Sitting in a classroom watching videos or playing out paper exercises of scenarios is a waste of time. To truly understand yourself you need the roar of gunfire and the smell and taste of exploded gun powder in your mouth.

Not intending to point fingers, I'll just ask this question to be considered with no request for an answer. How many CCW holders reading this thread have had to draw their weapon, loaded with safety off, and point it at another human?? Even smaller number would be, how many reading this thread have pulled the trigger in such a situation??

You need to consider this in your own mind. If you think there would be any hesitation or problem with doing that then you need to consider further training. While there you might decide you are the wrong person to be carrying that weapon.

I don't know about your part of the state Richard, but in my area we had one for years, may still be there, but my son was a trainer there for some time and the trainers were all former or current LEO, military or both. Classes taught were beginning handgun, CCW, advanced handgun or private lessons; these were in addition to shotgun, patrol rifle, sniper and executive protection.

I received ongoing training from my department, but also went through a CCW class upon retirement with my wife. I encourage anyone who has done the basic CCW to get additional training and would really like to see FARSas a part of CCW training, but the expense is a bit too much for most..

 

[murphy1244]

Its amazing how many women are getting CHL permits now. Must be 10% at least of the classes now.

 

[Sysop]

Lotta good posts and the topic has grown and meandered nicely.

As far as training goes, I don't care who you are or what you've been through, more training is always good. Never cease training... Never think any sort of training is below your skillset either, there is always something needs relearned or learned a little differently to break through the various plateaus of skill-level and knowledge we reach.

 

[k0ua]

Its amazing how many women are getting CHL permits now. Must be 10% at least of the classes now.

At the two classes I attended sponsored by my church, it was well over 50 percent female.

 

[Jstpssng]

I agree in theory but not in practice. What I see in this scenario is 1 in 10 at the top, a few "near the top", and a few near the bottom who are unlikely to realize their position as sheep. Perhaps angry because while their handling skill & knowledge of guns are exemplary, their attitudes are deemed unacceptable and likely to put the public at risk

Are you going to trust your wife/family to these guys? How many years does this arrangement survive before there is a disagreement between factions. Or a connection with crime or "other" political parties? I predict you would be dissatisfied within half of a generation.

I prefer folks to direct energy and concern (for public safety) towards supporting and refining a reliable police force that is answerable to the public.

I think that you're taking it too far... I was referring to CCW carriers who merely want to protect themselves and their families. That piece of paper does nothing to prepare you for waking up in the middle of the night and going from dead asleep to full adrenaline.

I totally agree with this!!!!! In Missouri, if we had 2 or 3 or 4 locations where academy type hands on training could be incorporated into the CCW training I believe it would sort this out. The true Sheep Dogs would rise to the top and the Sheep would realize their position.

I've spent days and days and days of training in these types of scenarios. Even the most avid Sheep Dog will face his/her maximum capabilities and tolerances. Which, when you think about it, is the intent.

I find it a bit disturbing that CCW training does not do this. Sitting in a classroom watching videos or playing out paper exercises of scenarios is a waste of time. To truly understand yourself you need the roar of gunfire and the smell and taste of exploded gun powder in your mouth.

Not intending to point fingers, I'll just ask this question to be considered with no request for an answer. How many CCW holders reading this thread have had to draw their weapon, loaded with safety off, and point it at another human?? Even smaller number would be, how many reading this thread have pulled the trigger in such a situation??

You need to consider this in your own mind. If you think there would be any hesitation or problem with doing that then you need to consider further training. While there you might decide you are the wrong person to be carrying that weapon.

After I wrote this I realized that there probably are options available... Actually it's hard to believe that the NRA doesn't have excellelant training available.
Several years ago one of the sportsman's channels had a couple episodes on how to be safe; they had one on having a safe room for your family and how to defend it, another was on staying out of dicey situations to begin with. It was supposed to run every week but I never saw it again...

 

[bumperm]

I was a cop long ago in the 70's. Oakland, CA had it's own police academy and was widely considered one of the finest in the area. Other PD's would send there recruits to our academy. The emphasis was on law. report writing, and community relations. We trained with guns, of course, and after graduation, there was ongoing training - but not nearly enough. I reloaded and tried to shoot at least 50 rounds a week on my own, just to keep in practice.

Over the past several years, I've done some IDPA type shooting with friends. The civilian training now is *Far and Away Better* than the training we had back then. Now I know, with computers and simulators and such, the training now just has to be a lot better than it was back then. Of course, when the stress and adrenaline kick in, or a bad guy is shooting back, it's a whole nuther thing. All in all, and depending on the source and study, cops only hit their intended target with about 10% to 30% of shots fired. That means, if there's some really good shots, there's some really piss poor shots too! Good luck with that.

For Sodo, who suggests we concentrate on police rather than folks carrying guns to protect themselves and others. There's an oft repeated saying that bares repeating once more, "When seconds count, the police are just minutes away."

I'll add a bit to that and say that in many communities, the folks that are paying taxes, paying the bills, and not chasing their wives around with a kitchen knife (or visa versa) are not the ones getting all the police services. Nope, the cops are in the cheap seats, affordable housing areas, ghettos, where the crime is. The cops assigned those beats in the hills, the more prestigious areas, why they're down in the ghetto helping their comrades too. Least that's the way it was when I worked in Oakland, and I suspect it hasn't much changed.

If you want protection, either be a sheepdog or befriend one. If you think calling the cops will be there for you when the stuff hits the fan, for the most part you will be severely disappointed as they will seldom be there to witness or stop the crime from happening. Oh, they'd like to be, it's just that they will likely be someplace else, taking a burglary report etc. To have a cop nearby when bad things happen you'd need a cop on every street corner and it STILL would not be enough. Cops know that. Many sheep don't.

As to two CCW guns in Wal-Mart. Even cops have that problem, plain clothes cops and uniformed. There have been unfortunate shootings. Doesn't happen often, but still a concern. I personally would not shoot someone in an active shooter situation unless I had more to go on than just hearing shots fired. If they are in a mall, wearing camo and shooting an AK-47, that's enough to count as more. If they just shot at a little old lady, that's more, you get the idea. If they are carrying a hand gun and behaving in a manner that suggests they may be looking for the shooter, I sure wouldn't wave and say Hi friend, I'm here to help. I'd be initially taking cover from them as well, until I watch their behavior - profiling?

Be safe out there.

bumper

 

[Sodo]

Thanks Bumperm, but I'm already fairly comfortable with highly trained (and sane) CCW folks. Its the others, the wannabes, or maybe the "not sheep" wannabes. I'm not likely to cozy up to one of those fellas, the chance they are improving safety is low, and could go the other way too easily.

Point taken about police not being there to protect you at the time of the incident. Of course its highly unlikely. My point is that its equally unlikely that more than 1 in 10 CCW fellas can actually protect sheep, and several of the fellas on the other side of 10 are pretty likely to make things worse. Like that poor fella who went after the chainsaw. $1,000 is only one morning of attorney fees, and thats not a drop in the bucket. I hope he didn't have a wife & kids.

 

[RSKY]

This thread is scaring the snot out of me. Are there really that many people out there LOOKING for a reason to shoot somebody?

Deadly force should be a last resort in any situation!! You never know if you will be the winner or looser. I worked with a guy from Tennessee who emptied a 45 Colt, seven rounds, center mass with all rounds, into a VC and the VC still got him before he died. Shot him somewhere in the belly. Said it hurt like the dickens. Seven forty-five rounds into a guy and then stand there with an empty pistol while the already dead guy gets off one shot before he collapses. It doesn't matter if you are a sheep, wolf, or sheep-dog, if you are shot you stand the chance of dying. Or worse, drawing attention to yourself and getting one of your family killed.

How many of you sheep-dogs would trade the life of one of your children to end a thief breaking into your house? How many would trade the life of your wife to stop somebody stealing your car? Jump in the middle of a situation waving a gun around and it will happen.

As I have said before there is nothing I own worth dying for or killing somebody for. The most precious thing I have are my family. Steal my property and I will replace it. Bother my family and I will do whatever is necessary to protect them no matter the consequences.

RSKY

And yes I broke my promise to stay off this thread.

 

[bumperm]

[

RSKY,

Some of your examples make little sense. If your co-worker had no .45 to shoot the VC, don't you think the VC would have put a lot more bullets into him? The fact that the VC was shot several times doubtless limited his ability to return fire adequate to kill your former co-worker. BTW, the co-worker possibly could have gotten away unscathed if he'd have shot two rounds center mass and the next a well placed head shot.

"If you are shot you stand the chance of dying. . . . " Oh-kay. If I don't have a gun to defend and protect myself, I also have a chance of dying. The way you phrase it, it sounds like a no win, but being armed, and competently trained, I believe ones odds are much greater at staying alive. I'm 70, and know for sure that being armed saved me at least once. There have been a number of mass shootings where chances are there'd have been fewer fatalities if there had been a competent armed person present (other than the shooter).

"How many of you sheep-dogs would trade the life of one of your children to end a thief breaking into your house? How many would trade the life of your wife to stop somebody stealing your car? Jump in the middle of a situation waving a gun around and it will happen."

I'm sure you are trying to make a point of some kind, but whatever logic you're attempting to use in your examples is lost on me. Remember, I was a cop, I know bad guys. If a thief is breaking into an occupied house, let's say cat-burglar style, quietly, he may well be armed. He also may be a rapist or kidnapper, or murderer, or? If he's making a lot of noise coming in, you can bet he's armed, or on drugs. Trading a child's life? How about NOT protecting your child? ". . . waving a gun around", Who but a complete incompetent would be waving a gun around? Heck, you don't see that lever of ignorance even in the movies. Waving a gun around is a good way to get the gun taken away from you, or worse.

If a bad guy is coming into a house at night, one of the best courses of action is to take cover (this should be planned in advance) safe room, behind the bed, whatever, have the spouse dial 911, and take cover *with* your gun trained at the point that bad guy must enter the room and wait for the bad guy to come to you. Yup, this will likely mean one dead bad guy. I don't look forward to ever having to do that, but should that day come, my plan is to make it the bad guy's last, not mine or my wife's.

You hide or do whatever you feel comfortable doing. I truly hope all ends well. You have a right *not* to protect yourself and I respect that. On occasion I have helped people like you. In fact it was one of the few positive feedback sort of things I was able to do as a cop, arrive at a house with a sole occupant who was terrified by the sound of someone trying to break in. Yes, I did suggest they consider purchasing a gun for home protection and getting appropriate training. I'd suggest you do the same . . . just don't jump into a situation and wave your gun around - bad form.

 

[TripleR]

This thread is scaring the snot out of me. Are there really that many people out there LOOKING for a reason to shoot somebody?

You must scare easily as I've not gotten that from this thread and certainly not from the many people I've known over the years both Law Enforcement and CCW holders. Of course. "Deadly force should be a last resort in any situation!!" This was part of every "Continuum of Force Training" I had to attend yearly as well as the CCW class as a civilian.

From the first day I owned a handgun, I used the approach recommended by bumperm, "If a bad guy is coming into a house at night, one of the best courses of action is to take cover (this should be planned in advance) safe room, behind the bed, whatever, have the spouse dial 911, and take cover *with* your gun trained at the point that bad guy must enter the room and wait for the bad guy to come to you. Yup, this will likely mean one dead bad guy. I don't look forward to ever having to do that, but should that day come, my plan is to make it the bad guy's last, not mine or my wife's."

Like others on here, I've known people who had to kill someone, all were justified, but they paid a heavy emotional price with some losing their profession or family due to the aftermath, no one I've ever known has looked for a reason to shoot someone.

As to the rest, I'll defer to bumperm and like him, my handgun has saved me.