The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugly

cowboydoc · Jul 3, 2002

Re: The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugl

I will agree that yes in a perfect world then everything we got would be perfect, it would be free and we would all be millionaires. But let's get real. And no I'm not putting down what Bill has gone through. It's terrible for him. I feel for him and wish it hadn't happened. I don't think there's one person that has commented that doesn't feel Bill's pain and thinks that the way it happened is the way that it should be. But that aside. Let's just look at this from a business aspect.

Let's look at this from a purely economic standpoint and leave the should be and perfect world out of this. Bill said he saved I think something like $4k from the local dealer. If the other dealer cut his prices that much where is the profit margin to maintain that dealership if he gives just as good of service as the guy down the road? That service comes at a price. Like John pointed out probably alot of the customers at that dealership are farmers and ranchers like myself who don't care much about service and are only interested in price. Service comes at a price. It's not a perfect world gentlemen. Very few of us will pay that premium for service. Everyone looks for the cheapest price and secondly they think about service after the sale. I'm not excusing it it's just the climate that we work in today. Walmart is the largest retailer in the world working off of the price issue, or the perception of low prices. It doesn't matter if it's JD, Ford, Kubota, Walmart, Best Buy, etc. Everyone wants the absolute lowest price. It used to be there was a profit margin built in that people could make it. Now look at all of the big corporations that sell based on volume and low prices to push the mom and pop's out of business who had superior service. You know the irony of this all is everyone complains about how high priced deere is and then when a dealer sells for what must have been near cost then we bash them for that. You just can't have it all in todays business world. Name me one company that does it. If your profit margin is next to cost there isn't much room left to have superior service. If you're willing to take care of the headaches yourself then there are deals to be had. If you want someone else to take care of all the headaches there just aren't too many businesses that do that anymore.

rancar · Jul 3, 2002

Re: The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugl

<font color=blue>But let's get real.</font color=blue>

Sorry, cowboy. I just don't see it your way. I am a realist. I pay real money. I expect real service, not second rate service. And if I don't get real service, then I open my trap until I get the service I expect from JD or any other company I do business with. Maybe, it's just me, but since the 1970s, I've been ripped off too many times by 'el crappo' product salesmen that misleadingly espoused the virtues and quality of their products. Not any more. I've been burned enough through prior experiences that I don't have to sit back and just take it and say to myself, "Well, I guess that's the way business is done these days." That's bunk.

As for price and service, I don't care where the dealers make their profit. The customer who pays a marginal or significant discount off MSRP doesn't need to pay for it with lousy service. These are two separate issues and I don't quite see the connection as you see it.

jasonf · Jul 3, 2002

Re: The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugl

Bill:
So now that some time has passed what is going on. Has Deere gotten back to you at all, how about the dealers ? What abut the tractor, are you happy with the model that you chose, and the features that it has? Im sorry that you had to go through this, hang tough, I hope you prevail in the end.

bigpete · Jul 3, 2002

Re: The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugl

Bill, I don't mean to talk about you as if you are not here, so I'm sorry if this post reads that way. Just offering a way that helps me to get over the lumps I have received in past business deals and will most likely continue to receive as long as I venture anything.

Dashed expectations are the longest to heal. Disappointment is directly proportionate to the level of expectation in the transaction. Many in this thread have said that they've been there, as will I. As the old addage states, the higher you go, the farther the fall.

I think we all have varying levels of expectations from such a purchase. As time passes in anticipation our expectations may grow and grow. Bill's expectations and subsequent disappointment are real to him regardless of what we may have anticipated in a similar deal.

Cowboydoc's post brings to light a premise that I have used when I find myself regretting either something I did or feeling angry about something that was done to me, especially when big money is involved. That premise is based in the types of risk analysis, or actuarial logic, that venture capitalists use, as well as insurance companies and professional gamblers.

It has always helped me to reconcile a "loss" with what I might have gained, in turn. In this case, I might (I repeat, I might) factor the $4,000 saved from a distant purchase as a venture gain that was reduced by the realized risk in the outcome. Regardless of what (reasonably expected) additional customer service and remuneration Bill is able to get out of the original dealer, at this point his actuarial gain is his savings minus the costs to bring his tractor to the original expected level of performance.

The key here is to understand that this does not necessarily make the emotions go away completely, but it begins to help me quantify my best business position and make the best decisions that are possible in the face of my certainly-justified emotions. Please don't read this as a sanctification of any level of service that was below Bill's expectations, but rather, as a way to move forward, make better decisions, and end up satisfying all of the needs that drove me down the path in the first place.

If I can save a couple thousand dollars and ensure I will get my dream machine and top-notch furure service, I'll take a few emotional lumps to get there. I have another favorite addage that states "What goes around, comes around." Sometimes it's virtually impossible to stay patient while it comes around, and I'm looking for Bill to find satisfaction when it does finally come around. In so many words, where you end up is ultimatley more important than how you got there.

Good luck and Godspeed, Bill.

Happy Independence Day, y'all.

TimSullivan · Jul 3, 2002

I understand some of you are saying but Bill knew what tractor he wanted and he is happy with his choice. It just was not set-up correctly. I always thought that the product should be delivered in working condition or quickly corrected.

Buying from a dealer hundreds of miles from home worried me enough that when I was considering Kabota, I visited the Carver dealership. We were on our way to Florida and planned a few hours in Dunn. I was very impressed but would not have bought the unit there as a local dealer was only a few hundred more when shipping and taxes were considered. Now if the price difference had been greater, Carver would have been my choice for Kabota.

I priced JD dealers all over NY and PA and what I found was the farther away I got the less time the salesperson was willing to spend answering questions. Three dealers wanted deposits ranging from 10 to 25% before they would order the tractor. Needless to say they got dropped from the list in a hurry. It became clear that I was not going to save enough to buy from a distant dealer.

When the time came to buy the tractor, I had all the prices and took them to the dealer I thought had treated me the best. They also had the most experienced service department with a very good reputation. I got this info from the area JD owning farmers. The dealership also had a service manager who answered all my dumb question completely and with a smile. He actually wanted to make sure I understood the answer. The best was they were only 12 miles from my home. The boss looked the prices over and dropped the package price $2100. It was a few hundred dollars more than the best price but with all things considered I was happy. If the difference had been $4000, I would have had to look hard at buying at a greater distance.

It has been a year since I bought the 4300 and I am very pleased with the machine and the dealer. I blew the cylinders that control the bucket of the FEL. They picked up the machine and replaced them no problem. I lost the pin in the forward pedal of the HST. When I called and told them, they had a service truck drop it off on the way to a call. I had it in 45 minutes. I still ask dumb questions and they still answer them all with a smile.

Bill made a decision that I probably would have done too. That much of a price difference would sure make me buy elsewhere.

If we all had local dealers that treated us well, then there would be no reason to buy a tractor 350 miles away. I am just fortunate to have one in my area.

blurrybill · Jul 3, 2002

UPDATE: After work today I will post the update on resolution to my initial problem. Just don't have time at the moment, but wanted to all to know that news is coming either tonight or in the a.m. Hint: I have been contacted by a JD representative.

Bill

MikeCT · Jul 3, 2002

The one question that continually has gone unanswered. Has the tractor been returned to the original dealer so that he could correct the problems. You need to give people the opportunity to correct their errors. I think it's unfair to immediately go to a second dealer and run up a $440 bill without giving the first dealer a chance (if he was $4000 less to start, there’s probably not a whole lot of room to invest more in this tractor) . Once again, it's not the dealer's fault that he's 350 miles away. As for the local dealer, he needs to give priority to his regular customers that he earns his living on day after day. If someone goes 350 miles to buy a tractor it's very likely that they will shop and travel for every attachment looking to save every last nickel, sorry, when it come to service you'll be at the end of the line. The local dealer is only responsible for true warranty repairs in a reasonable period of time. Every story has two sides, and the truth is usually somewhere in between.

Mike

blurrybill · Jul 3, 2002

Believe it or not, Mike, there is truth, there are absolutes, there is right and wrong. Ethics exist, so does responsibility, value, dedication to a cause, pride in workmanship, yes, and even conscience.

In other words, contrary to prevailing thought in some circles -- everything is not relative. Freud even said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." And, sometimes truth is not a matter of perspective at all. Sometimes truth does NOT depend on "what the definition of 'is' is."

Bill

Gary_in_Indiana · Jul 3, 2002

MikeCT,

I'm not trying to answer for Bill here, but, having read each and every post in this thread I feel comfortable in saying he has not been back to where he bought it.

As to it not being the selling dealer's fault they are a day away, I agree completely. The flip side is had they done their job properly the question of correcting errors would never have arisen. IMHO, a compromise on that might be in order representing something in the middle ground of what Bill spent ($440) and what the selling dealer would have invested in correcting those same problems.

I suggest something like that because, as you said, it's not the dealer's fault he's not local to Bill and he deserves the opportunity to correct the problems in the most inexpensive manner to him. Bill, on the other hand, should not be expected to schlep the thing a day each way to facilitate that, either.

Like I said... Just one guy's opinion here.

blurrybill · Jul 3, 2002

Chapter Seven: Resolution of immediate problem.

On July 1, while at work, the Missouri area rep telephoned my office. (name edited out by request) identified himself and we talked briefly about my concerns. While on the phone I led him to TBN and my post which he scanned briefly. Without much time to talk, I wanted (edited) to have an opportunity to read my and others' posts on the reported problems.

(edited) stated that he had been in contact with the dealership and salesman a few days earlier and encouraged the salesman to call me to discuss the problems. The salesman claimed he had telephoned my office more than once but wasn't able to get through (we have voicemail when either my practice manager or myself are not available).

Based on my patient schedule, (edited) agreed to call either on Tuesday or Wednesday for further discussion. TRUE TO HIS WORD, he called back today. Again, he reiterated that he hoped the dealer had called me, something he encouraged them to do -- up to the moment, I have not received a call from the dealership.

In any event, (edited) said that he had arranged for JD to pay half of the $440, with the dealer picking up the remainder, apparently a traditional way of handling this kind of problem.

It is important to note that (edited) was professional, courteous and helpful without disparaging either me or the dealer. He was surprised that they hadn't called. We also talked about the ballast box pin that was supposed to be sent and other problems with the hydraulics. He explained that JD viewed the dealers as the contact with consumers in terms of working out design/application problems and I concurred, stating that I would try to get the other problems worked out locally or through other inquiries.

In summary, I am pleased that JD, through their representative, paid attention to my concerns and I'm satisfied with this resolution. FYI, I was cordial and pleasant with (edited), as well, and I want to point out that throughout the past weeks, I have been consistent in that regard, both through the letters sent to the dealer and with (edited) and the local dealer.

I have genuinely appreciated the feedback and comments that this thread has generated. I hope that the ideas expressed with help others with purchases/problems. I was open with my salesman about being "stupid" with regard to tractors. Sadly, he took me literally and assumed that I was stupid in general, which I am not ( I know, some will disagree with that, as well.) I've enjoyed speculation about my feelings, motives, assumptions, thoughts on the road, my losses, JD's losses, ethics, ethical relativism, scratches, and personal and equipment dings.

I am grateful, too, for TBN which has offered a forum for all of the above. Now, I will retreat and retire to asking questions about my machine that I continue to believe will be answered by some experienced, savvy TBN member. I thank all of you in advance.

And, Thank You, John Deere.

Sincerely,
Bill (JD 4310, JD LX279)