The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugly

Gary_in_Indiana · Jul 4, 2002

Re: The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugl

"Most farmers and people who buy tractors expect to get scratches on it anyways so as long as there are no huge gouges we never worry about them"

Most everyone expects the car and especially the work truck they buy to get scratches. They go immediately to the jobsite or, much worse, the parking lot at the mall or restaurant. That's no reason to lower expectations for quality of paint, fit and finish on something new for over $25,000.00. Why should a tractor be different?

You say that you "pay for reliability and ease of use (on a tractor)." Do you not want or expect the same things of a new car or work truck?

You say that you "could care less if there was a ton of scratches as long as the machine did what (you) ask of it." MAYBE I could live with that IF I were compensated for it. I'm paying for new and I want it to look like new.

If you'd accept the kind of damage to paint and finish on a new car or truck that Bill got on his 4310, you'd be the ONLY purchaser of a new vehicle I've heard of doing so in my twenty-five years in the business.

With all due respect, you may well be that one, single, sole, solitary exception. You were certainly right in that Bill has the right to expect it to have perfect paint. I disagree that it should be incumbant on him to let the dealer know that. To me, that should be understood, not something requiring special instructions. Maybe my business is different, but I don't have to be told that a customer expects a new $25,000.00 purchase not be dinged, nicked, scratched and scraped when he comes to take delivery.

Robert_in_NY · Jul 4, 2002

Re: The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugl

You asked why and I told you why. Have you ever looked under a new car or truck, you will find there are just as many scratches under there as there is on the frame of a tractor but you do not complain about that because you do not see it. I do know that if JD, NH and Kubota was to start taking more care for the paint and such on all their tractors they would just add more to the final cost of the tractor but you would be happy paying $25k for a $24k tractor because it was all shiny with no scratches.

I think if it was only scratches Bill had a problem with on his JD there would be no discussion like this. His problem was poor assembly where a lot of things didn't work right. You originally asked about paint and when I told you that paint isn't important to a lot of people you seem to get offended by it. The simple truth is a lot of people just want to be able to go out there and know their machine will start and perform like advertise and if JD throws some paint on there that is fine. Owners of compact tractors are the ones who are more concerned with paint, and that is not meant to be rude. The majority of compact tractor owners use their machines to mow their yards and they want their machines to look as nice as the rest of their property. Now would you really care about a few scratches if your tractor sat outside hooked to a manure spreader all day. Chances are the tractors scratches are covered in dirt and crap anyways so no one sees them or cares their there. There are two different worlds, the compact tractor world and the farm world. I know there are some farmers who don't want scratches on their new tractors and I also know there are compact tractor owners who don't care about scratches on their tractors.

As for comparing a $25k tractor to a $25K car or truck good luck. Most tractors above a compact start at $25k and average close to $80-$100k. This is where JD and the rest make their money and if the owners of these tractors don't care about the paint why would the JD. The compact tractor is the equal to the Ford Escort if you want to compare as it is the entry level model. What type of fit and finish do you see on a Escort? You will see a lot of corners are cut on entry level machines and all companies do it whether it is cars, tractors or computers. This sure did get long just for me to say that a lot of people don't care about paint. Take care.

Boondox · Jul 4, 2002

Too bad you felt it necessary to disparage EVERYONE (except yourself of course). 

If my tractor had been delivered in that condition, and the dealer had been that unreceptive to my concerns, I would have taken vacation time to picket the dealership and drive as much business away as possible. I think Bill showed a remarkable degree of restraint and maturity. How about sipping some of that Kenyan AA and relaxing a bit? Nobody was attacked here

Pete

Anonymous Poster · Jul 4, 2002

Re: The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugl

And a lot of people do.

Alan L. · Jul 5, 2002

Blurybill, I must say if you have acted with as much patience with JD and the dealer as it sounds, you have much more patience that I do. I probably would have pissed everyone off the first day and had to eat the $440.

I still believe that price is irrelevant to the level of service you should get. Tractor dealers are the representatives of the tractor manufacturers even more so that car dealers, because they have to set the tractor up for the end user. If a dealer doesn't do a good job, then from the customer standpoint, the manufacturer is ultimately responsible.

From your resolution it appears that JD follows this concept; however I would still be concerned about the other problems you are having. If I were you I would take it back to the original dealer and make them fix it right.

As for scratches and dents, my Kubota B2710 arrived as flawless as new truck, and I would not have accepted it if it had not. The consumer pays the money, and the consumer should be be the one to put the first flaws on the equipment.

Right now my Kubota has scratches and small dents, but I put them there myself.

Gary_in_Indiana · Jul 5, 2002

Re: The truth: 4310: the good, the bad, mostly ugl

Robert,

You and I are destined to disagree on this. I certainly respect your right to your opinion. For what it's worth, I wasn't offended by anything you said. I was concerned with what I percieved to be your position that one had no right to expect a new compact tractor to look like one.

Whether or not large tractor buyers are concerned with finish is irrelevant. That's not what we're discussing here. Just because the manufacturer makes larger tractors doesn't mean compact should be finished poorly. The manufacturer should know their market. Quite frankly, I sincerely doubt the flaws were on the tractor in question at the end of the assembly line. I have more confidence in and respect for Deere than to believe that. You implied that was the case and I heartily disagree. I would think the damage may have occured in transit but more likely at the selling dealer.

You indicated that comparing a $25K tractor to a $25K truck or car is unfair because even though the subject tractor was $25K+, the average full size tractor was larger and more expensive. I fail to see how that matters at all. Would it help if I compared this tractor to trucks that can cost well over $200K and have a six figure average? I know those buyers quite well and, while they want functionality, appearance is also very important.

Since your post "sure did get long just for (you) to say that a lot of people don't care about paint" I guess it's only fair that mine is long, too. Mine sure did get long just to say that whether people choose to care or not care about paint is their business, not that of the manufacturer or selling dealer and therefore every one should be delivered with proper fit and finish. If a buyer chooses to drive it through a barbed wire fence and scratch every inch of it day one, that's his choice. If, however, a buyer is the kind who chooses to go put a coat of wax on it right away, he should have perfect fit and finish for that.

I'm sorry we disagree on this. I just believe that any buyer of something new for $25,000 has the right to expect it to look new and unblemished whether it's a watch or a truck or a tractor or even a dump trailer heading for the coal mines. I think any quality manufacturer would agree with me. Obviously, you don't and I respect your right to feel that way.

MikePA · Jul 5, 2002

I've read every message in this thread and I think it should be required reading for every person contemplating purchasing their first tractor. It touches on almost every issue and concern people should ponder before plunking down their hard earned dollars. Dealer prep, customer expectations versus dealer expectations, buying local vs buying far away, etc. It's been educational reading the responses from people who come at the issue from a farmers perspective versus those who arrive at the issue having never owned anything more than a garden tractor or lawn mower. Just the other day I was thinking how different my second tractor purchase would be as compared to my first purchase. I have learned a lot from TBN as well as using a tractor for just 10 months, so my second purchase would be a more informed one than my first. Buying a CUT is probably the third, if not the second, largest purchase most of us will ever make. Given this, our frame of reference is severely limited and somewhat inappropriate, i.e., how do you compare buying a car to buying a tractor given the costs are about the same? Imagine sending a 16 year old, who has just received their driving license, into a car dealer to buy their first car. Many of us, who are a lot older than 16 /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif, are in a similar situation when buying our first tractor.

I think the dealers can learn alot from this thread, too. Dishonest/unethical dealers aside, so many problems arise from mismatched expectations. A dealer who is accustomed to selling to farmers should recognize the CUT buyer probably has a different set of expectations. These expectations are not right or wrong, just different. I wonder if the mfgrs or dealers conduct training for selling their different products?

Thanks, blurrybill, for being willing to start this thread knowing the responses it would result in.

DarrenP · Jul 5, 2002

If Bill would have taken the time to return to the original dealer with the TRACTOR the repairs would have been made in a timely fashion. He never gave them the chance......

Gary_in_Indiana · Jul 5, 2002

"how do you compare buying a car to buying a tractor given the costs are about the same? Imagine sending a 16 year old, who has just received their driving license, into a car dealer to buy their first car. Many of us, who are a lot older than 16 , are in a similar situation when buying our first tractor"

Mike, you make an excellent point. Allow me to take it even a step further.

In many cases (mine included) the analogy would be sending a sixteen year old who'd only seen cars and trucks from afar, never driven one, never even ridden in one, never had an interest in them or learning anything about them until now out to shop for a truck to do a specific job.

Like you, I'd be a lot different shopper/buyer were I to start looking for a second tractor, too. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Anonymous Poster · Jul 5, 2002

How could there possibly be 4000 dollars difference between one dealer and another? There is a 10 percent margin on the bikes and atvs I sell (not including incentives or holdbacks). Are you sure you were comparing apples to apples? Did you avoid paying state sale tax out of state? If so that would hardly be a fair comparison.