Thinking about going Solar.

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

I have given a lot of thought lately about going solar on my house, I haven’t looked into it much but have heard of programs that will help so it’s not as much money out of pocket.

Have any of you guys taken advantage of this? What’s the pros and cons of solar?

I just feel like I want to invest into renewable energy when it makes sense to do so.

Ohio has done a very poor job of renewable energy, we are one of the highest non renewable consumer states in the country and have some of the poorest air quality and most polluted waterways in the country as well.

 

[3Ts]

Renewable energy in the form of Solar, Wind, Hydro?, Biomass (wood or other combustible material), Geothermal would all be potential candidates. I don't know about any state or federal assistance programs, but I suspect some are out there. The key is what you are interested in accomplishing. From your post it sounds like the primary interest is in reducing your monthly energy cost. But, how much are you willing to pay up front to reduce your energy bill and how much will maintenance on your facility cost you?

- wind generator - a neighbor put up a wind turbine and tied it into the electric grid. It took long enough to get permits that he was very frustrated. (I'd been easier if he had not tied into the power company grid, but then he'd need additional equipment including batteries) He spent about $20k on the generator and associated equipment. It requires 20 mph wind to generate electricity to feed into the grid, and sometimes there is not enough wind and he pulls from the grid. Assuming an electric bill of $100/month, the $20K could have paid for 200 months of power and not have any maintenance concerns. So, what about the excess energy he fed into the grid? The terms to connect into it was that he gets credit for the month but not for any more than he uses. Meaning, his monthly bill can be as low as $0.00, but will never have a credit. And the months that he uses more than he generates, he gets billed for the difference. It does not carry over from one month to the next.

- solar - another neighbor took a different approach and is completely off-grid. He has a solar array and batteries and all the controllers, etc. He's not shared the costs with me, but he did say that if he makes it to 7 years without any problems, he'll break even and be all profit after that. However, just recently he shared that he forgot to check the water levels on some of his batteries and may have shortened their lifespan.

My point is this - be aware of all costs, especially the on-going maintenance costs and determine what you are really trying to accomplish. I'm all for environmental concerns, but I also look at the complete picture. I.e. what did it take to make those solar panels and to get them to me? Sometimes the answer to going off-grid or renewable energy to improve the environment is not what you'd expect.

 

[EddieWalker]

Of the dozen or so people that I've known in my life that lived off the grid, and where 100% depended on solar energy to power their homes, not one of them liked it. Most have sold their homes and bought places where they could be on the grid. The technology isn't there yet for it to be a practical replacement to city power, and if you remove the government incentives, very few people would have it. Sadly, the government got into the business of selling a product at the tax payers expense that allowed companies to make an inferior product that wasn't ready to be used to power homes, and as soon as the government quit giving out money to keep them in business, they quit selling that product. Latest that I've heard is that China is also backing away from solar now that the US taxpayer isn't subsidizing it like they used to.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

I have no plans to go off the grid and go solely on solar, I just wanted to stay on the grid and lower the electric bill by generating my own power.

 

[bunyip]

Went solar a few years ago and it knocked a lot of our power bill, we had off peak hot water and replaced that witha heat pump that runs during the day, that has cut us back even more, our power bills were about $900-1100 a quarter now around $150-200.
Managing use is critical, we run the dishwasher mid morning when the sun is high and never run the washing machine and dishwasher at the same time.
Of course our 'caring for the environment' power companies charge more for power when you have solar, we have a 4.5kw system but when we move will go for a 7.5kw, the prices have dropped dramatically over the past few years, we paid AU$6k for the 4.5kw but now they are about AU$4k, 7-8 years ago they were about $22k, we get a rebate on installation which makes it affordable, same with the hot water which cost us $250, the government picked up the remaining $1k+.
I believe wind power has more than its fair share of problems with bearing failures (I have heard) and you don't see a lot except for the many commercial wind farms.

 

[ChiefBodie]

Beware of solar leasing. The sales people make it sound great, but you are paying retail to high-retail for all of the components. If you can outright purchase, even with outside financing, that is better. The other disadvantage of a solar lease is the solar company requires them to approve of the buyer if you sell your property. Not something I would want.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

Of the dozen or so people that I've known in my life that lived off the grid, and where 100% depended on solar energy to power their homes, not one of them liked it. Most have sold their homes and bought places where they could be on the grid. The technology isn't there yet for it to be a practical replacement to city power, and if you remove the government incentives, very few people would have it. Sadly, the government got into the business of selling a product at the tax payers expense that allowed companies to make an inferior product that wasn't ready to be used to power homes, and as soon as the government quit giving out money to keep them in business, they quit selling that product. Latest that I've heard is that China is also backing away from solar now that the US taxpayer isn't subsidizing it like they used to.

Truth: Most folks who go off-grid fail and are more than happy to move back to civilization. I have toured many of these failed "homesteads" and marvel that people managed to live there as long as they did. Yurts, quonset huts, shacks cobbled together with pallet wood and junkyard windows in the vain hope that "solar gain" will offset heat loss due to the single pane windows plus a general lack of insulation..... I have yurt-dwelling friends that can't sleep more than 2 hours at a time in winter due to the need to add more wood to the stove. I also have homesteading friends who have lived without any comforts whatsoever for over 25 years while waiting for the end times to come.

We are used to "flip a switch" and the lights go on. So most folks will be more comfortable with solar/wind as an adjunct to more conventional power. And you need a good, solid house to start with IMO.

Some of your comments about government incentives, etc., may be a little out of date. China is going whole hog on renewables. The technology is moving forward quickly now, and prices are going down.

I'm a big believer in having more than one source of energy; it just makes sense.

 

[ChiefBodie]

We are used to "flip a switch" and the lights go on.

Having to flip a switch seems like a great deal of effort. Do you do that for every room you enter? Occupancy sensors, computer controlled "scenes" that adjust lighting for you are the rage. Just ask me-- my neighbor has it all. But I do like his outside lights that automatically dim to half brightness at 10pm.

Me? I have none of it. I'm with you-- a switch flipper.

 

[bunyip]

Off the grid is viable but if we are less than 5km from power I wouldn't bother, batteries are still expensive and a back up generator is a must, I have seem off grid living but there seem to be a lot of compromises, depends on whether you want to live or exist.

 

[Budweiser John]

This is a timely thread as my wife and I just signed a contract for a 20KW solar system to be on line sometime in November of this year. We are not going off grid but having done a great deal or research in the last five months, the numbers stack up favorably reducing our total utility cost from around $350.00 per month to something around $25.00. In as much as we have geothermal heating and cooling and electric hot water the +/-$25.00 covers 100% all utilities but for a small amount of propane used for the kitchen range and great room fireplace.
Buyer beware. We invited four company’s to bid on the project and the price spread between the four bidders exceeded 30K. We then eliminated the highest and lowest bidder and concentrated our focus on the two remaining bids checking references, financial stability, sight inspections of completed projects, and final delivered price.
What really makes solar viable is the 30% federal tax credit available until December 31,2018 and the allowable execellerated depreciation. Our break even point is projected at 9 years and with an estimated increase in electricity cost at 4% per year compounded the estimated utility savings over 25 years approach $100K.
To be continued as the project unfolds

B. John

 

[Mike Madison]

My electric rates are tiered, that is, the more you use, the higher the cost per kWh. So I put in a modest, (3.5kW) grid-tied solar system to knock of the expensive tiers. It's eleven years old now--no problems. Probably hasn't paid out yet, but it might eventually get to zero. In addition, I have an off-the-grid solar powered pump in a deep well. Five panels (1.4kw) run a DC pump, so there is no inverter, no batteries, etc. When the sun shines, it pumps water (about 20 gallons per minute). I use this for supplemental summertime irrigation in my orchards. That whole system (panels, pump, controls) only cost me $3700. It's worth it to me just to have a back-up supply of water when the power's out and my main well won't pump.

 

[edgarrian]

We had a 10kw system quoted to us. It came in after rebate of 22k. They wanted 4500 just to bury the cable which is ridiculous. We ended up not going this route even with the fact of knowing the tax credits will be done after this year. For solar energy to be connected to the grid you have to have a policy incase you back feed the grid. I believe ours was a million dollar liability. It was gonna cost an extra 250 dollars a year for the insurance. So keep that in mind. We live in the middle of 8 acre wooded lot and truth be told I didn't have time to take down trees for the project as shade is you enemy. They claimed that you get most of your power from the ours of 10am to 4pm or atleast thats what we were told. Id like to add solar but we might have to wait for a few years. It will be interesting to see how the solar companies will compete with out the tax credit. In all honesty they need to get more competitive. The tax credit has hindered the competition a bit. I had 4 quotes and off them were with in a thousand of each other. So they were all within reason.

 

[DarkBlack]

This is a timely thread as my wife and I just signed a contract for a 20KW solar system to be on line sometime in November of this year. We are not going off grid but having done a great deal or research in the last five months, the numbers stack up favorably reducing our total utility cost from around $350.00 per month to something around $25.00. In as much as we have geothermal heating and cooling and electric hot water the +/-$25.00 covers 100% all utilities but for a small amount of propane used for the kitchen range and great room fireplace.
Buyer beware. We invited four company’s to bid on the project and the price spread between the four bidders exceeded 30K. We then eliminated the highest and lowest bidder and concentrated our focus on the two remaining bids checking references, financial stability, sight inspections of completed projects, and final delivered price.
What really makes solar viable is the 30% federal tax credit available until December 31,2018 and the allowable execellerated depreciation. Our break even point is projected at 9 years and with an estimated increase in electricity cost at 4% per year compounded the estimated utility savings over 25 years approach $100K.
To be continued as the project unfolds

B. John

Not to be a Debbie downer, but I think you forgot to offset your predicted savings by the money that could be earned alternatively if you invested the same money in something else. For instance $30k invested in an s&p fund averaging 8% a year, or better yet, a REIT stock paying 10% dividends. Compound that for 25 years time... that is unless you relish the idea of maintaining 25 Year old battery banks

 

[BoFuller]

We have been totally off-grid for 3 years now and I have no regrets. We bought the land knowing that there were no power lines within 10 miles. It’s not cheaper and never will be, but we wanted to be off-grid and didn’t mind paying the extra to do it. We don’t “sacrifice” but we do “manage”. We have a washer and dryer, dishwasher, microwave, toaster oven, and all the conveniences. Our walls are 26” logs and we have top grade double pane windows. THe majority of time we heat with the wood stove, which I can fill at 7PM and it will still be going strong at 7AM. We have a propane vented heater in the kitchen, bedroom, and bath, but rarely use them. Mostly they are for while we are away, when I set them for about 50 degrees to prevent pipes from freezing.
Stove, dryer, and water heater are propane, as well as the backup generator. We have a 3600 watt 48 volt system with twelve 235 panels and 16 Trojan L16RE batteries. The backup generator runs about 4-6 times in January when there’s snow or dark days and maybe once in June when the whole family shows up. Then there are hair dryers and such. We try to do laundry and vacuuming during the daylight hours to save on battery usage, but we don’t let it dictate what we do.
Overall we are extremely happy with the whole setup, but like I said, it is NOT saving us money. We have no electric bill, but when you amortize the batteries and equipment over the expected life, it costs more than being connected. But the peace of mind - knowing that if the grid goes down it wont affect us - it’s worth it to us.

 

[BAP]

Not to be a Debbie downer, but I think you forgot to offset your predicted savings by the money that could be earned alternatively if you invested the same money in something else. For instance $30k invested in an s&p fund averaging 8% a year, or better yet, a REIT stock paying 10% dividends. Compound that for 25 years time... that is unless you relish the idea of maintaining 25 Year old battery banks

Some things in life are not about getting rich, but doing what you feel is the best for you and your impact on this world. We are looking at solar to reduce our carbon footprint and reduce our fossil fuel dependencey.

 

[AndyMA]

I have given a lot of thought lately about going solar on my house, I haven稚 looked into it much but have heard of programs that will help so it痴 not as much money out of pocket.

Have any of you guys taken advantage of this? What痴 the pros and cons of solar?

I just feel like I want to invest into renewable energy when it makes sense to do so.

Ohio has done a very poor job of renewable energy, we are one of the highest non renewable consumer states in the country and have some of the poorest air quality and most polluted waterways in the country as well.

I currently live in a Net Zero house thanks to improved insulation, air sealing and minisplits, My 20 kW solar system provides all the power to heat & cool the house as well as keep an in ground pool at 90 degrees all summer. This is a 1988 modular ranch.

Every day I analyze customer electric bill both pre and post solar as I manage an engineering team that design solar PV systems. Together we have designed and installed over 5,000 systems ranging from a few kilowatts to 5 megawatts, both on and off grid.

Battery storage is becoming more viable every day.

For state & federal programs see Database of State Incentives for Renewables & Efficiency(R) - DSIRE

Andy

 

[Jchonline]

We are building an off-grid home in the next couple of years in the CO mountains, so I am acutely aware of the current solar, thermal, wind, and hydro options. If you have specific questions please message me.

In general, I would only got off grid if I didn’t have easy access to the grid. If I had access to the grid, I would strongly consider a solar grid-tied system if you have high electric costs or if you are going to be living in your house long enough to offset the cost.

Wind really isn’t worth the cost vs solar. Hydro is just fine if you have the water and drop for it.

When considering off-grid, the first thing you must realize if you aren’t going to be able to live exactly like you did on grid. Identify major power draws and see what you can do without. House design is also critical. You have to understand solar-thermal properties and take advantage of each. You would preferrably build a new solar-thermal home with off grid, because you can do all of this right in the beginning.
Taking a home that is currently on grid and converting it to off grid would be very difficult. Environmental losses and all appliances are not made or designed for off grid use. No you dont need all DC appliances, but you do need to be smart about your AC choices and when you use them. For instance washing clothes when the sun is out just becomes a habit, not an inconvenience.

With off grid, you also need it professionally designed and installed by someone that has great experience with OFF grid systems. Not someone that does a bunch of grid-tied systems in the city and can do yours at a big discount. Off grid systems require careful engineering and planning to make them fully comparable to grid systems. You cant just throw in panels, an Inverter, a charge controller and some batteries and expect to get great performance.

Again if you have more specific questions please let me know. Best of Luck!

 

[Budweiser John]

Darkblack, per my original post, we are not intending to be compleatly off grid and as such will not have any battery back up. Your point about alternative investment choices is sound and was a part of our solar consideration. As mentioned, my wife who is a retired financial consultant with New York Life Insurance, and I studied all aspects and cash flow consequences of a solar investment and concluded solar was a viable investment and would significantly reduce our occupancy cost given the historical fact that electric rates have risen at the rate of 4.5% per year and likely to continue to rise.
Our decision was not off the cuff, flash in the pan but carefully researched. A common comment by those interviewed currently using solar as a part of their enegery needs; “I wish I had made the decision years ago”.
Like any investment, your results may vary.

B. John

 

[techman]

I can give you some data. I put in 9.2 kw grid tied system the end of '11. I got a good price on panels from my employer (Bosch - who dropped out of the business a few years later due to chinese competition) and also good prices on the inverter and racking system. The panels are not roof mounted due to trees, but since we had the land they are about 150' away in a clearing. In 6 years we paid off the investment (after fed and state credits), and also selling renewable energy credits (SRECs). The SRECs are bought to help states meet renewable energy credits. It was about $ 50/mwhr when we started, but today it averages $8/mwhr. ( SRECTrade | Home )

The system has been 100% reliable and produces about 60% of our energy consumption. We have net metering in our state, so this helps with the payback. House is 2800 sq-ft with 4 adults, 3 at home full time. He have geothermal heat/AC, all electric appliances, 2 refrigs and freezer, TVs, computers and other typical electric products. My bill is average $ 100/month over the year. Highest in the winter, lowest in the spring and fall.

I did the install myself (with help from some friends) and the only outside labor I paid for was an excavator to clear the land where the panels are located. I am not sure about the impact of tariffs, but I paid $ 1.92/watt for panels when I purchased, and I have seen prices around $ 1/watt or less for name brand panels today. Inverter prices have also dropped. For me it was a good investment providing low energy costs well into the future. I concur with others that companies selling no cash or lease programs are not worth it. If you have the money, buy it outright. If you are handy, do part or all of the install yourself to save money.

Paul

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

That whole system (panels, pump, controls) only cost me $3700. It's worth it to me just to have a back-up supply of water when the power's out and my main well won't pump.

Amen to that. Am seriously considering a small solar system just to run the well pump, a computer, and some lights in case of power outages, which are fairly frequent here in the heavily wooded mountains. In this case it would be about convenience, not cost savings.

Thanks to all who are providing real-life solar experiences.