Thinning on steep slopes with the PT 1850

[MikeOConnor]

Hi Power-Trac People. I've been over in the General Owning/Operating forum asking about this, but I'm homing in on the PT 1850 and want to ask you PT experts the same thing. Here's a link to the thread.

And here's the short version. Marcie and I have some really steep (like 30-45 degrees, up to 100% grade) hills on our farm that we want to do some major thinning on. Here's a link to a typical example. If you scroll about half way down that page, you'll see some pictures that give you a pretty good idea of how steep the hills are.

My thought is to go after these with a PT 1850 with; a tree shear for the little trees (maybe the new 10 ton version that's almost out), me running a chain saw to fell the bigger trees, the grapple bucket to forward the trees and slash off the hillsides, and the brush mower to clear off the little stuff.

I'm wondering if anybody in this forum of PT owners has ever tackled a project like this with PT equipment, and if so what your experiences have been.

Here are my worries;

- I know the PT 1850 is designed to *mow* on steep slopes, but perhaps I'm asking it to do too much when I ask it to also do bucket work?

- These hills are mine aren't smooth and I worry that the ground clearance on the PT 1850 is going to cause it to get hung up. Bob Skurka said some pretty reassuring stuff about articulated tractors and how they can get around in the first thread, so I'm feeling more confident -- but I'm interested in your thoughts as well.

- A big concern is the trade-off between going softly on the ground (very important for us, so we don't stir up weeds) but also traction. Any thoughts about this would be much appreciated.

I'm getting pretty keen on the machine, but there don't seem to be many of them out here in western Wisconsin, so I'm looking to find a few folks with real-world experience that I can quiz a little bit.

Thanks in advance...

 

[MossRoad]

That is an increadibly large project. Beautiful land, though.

A great chain saw is a must. So is safety equipment like chaps, eye, ear and head protection.

A tree shear will take the trees down, but you have to apply chemical killer to the stumps or they will just send out suckers ASAP and you will be right back where you started.

A grapple bucket would be a great tool for removing the spoils. Remember, you don't have to lift the stuff completely off the ground. You just have to grab it with the grapple, keep it as low as possible, and drag it out backwards.

And a brush hog out front would work great for the smaller stuff. I have a 4' hog for our PT425 and it will honestly take down anything up to 1.5", so the larger brush hogs on the larger units will get larger brush(great logic, huh?).

Don't worry about the ground clearance. These things climb over just about anything.

If you are really worried about the ground clearance, you may want to look into a great chainsaw and a used log skidder. Log skidders are designed to put minimal pressure on the forest floor and are made to do this kind of stuff. Also, consider a dozer. They will, however, tear up the ground. They put less pressure on the ground than a wheeled unit, but they have to skid to steer. The tracks they leave behind are just about perfect for seeds to start in. Little slits in the ground surrounded by fluffy soil. So weeds will pop up quickly in the tracks.

I have to wonder how fast you are planning to clear this area. I sounds like it could be a lifetime of enjoyment puttering around the countryside or a year or two of pain trying to get it done, every available hour spent working very hard.

If it were me, I'd first decide how much time I want to spend on it.

2. Determine what size equipment will do it in the time I have allotted.

3. Determine if I can afford the equipment to meet my timeline.

4. Start making adjustments to my timeline to match my budget, if necessary.

5. See if it would be cheaper both monetarily and mentally to hire it out VS doing it myself. Be realistic. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Mike:
I have a PT 1845 that I got because I'm too old for the excitement of uncommanded/uncontrolled trips downhill. Even with only single turf tires, it has been superb on what I consider steep. (It's rated to 40 degrees with duals, but I suspect slow cross-hill mowing of a smooth area would be all you could do, and a lot beyond what I would want to do.) I believe PT when they rate the 1850 with duals at 45 degrees, but the work that you can really accomplish on that kind of hill would be very limited and dangerous.
I hope you'll hear from Rip soon. He has adapted some attachments for working steep wooded and rocky hills, and when last I heard was happy with his 1845. Blackwell has more experience with more different PTs than any of us, and I hope he will chime in, as well.
The 1850 has more power and is bigger than the 1845, so should be more capable in most respects.
I wouldn't worry about ground clearance. I have floated my 1845 on its belly in mud and been able to wiggle out. I have scraped over logs and dropped in holes, and always been able to articulate to a point where I could move. The exceptions: I've once gotten sideways into a fence and once into a hole on a hill, which was a wet horse manure pit, with fence downhill and a tree ahead. Power Trac's capability leads to the kind of overconfidence that tempts you to drive into such an areas in the first place.
Those require a winch, another machine, or removal of the obstacle(s). Ground clearance, however, has never been a problem.
I recommend Power Trac without reservation for what you want. It will work steep slopes, and will disturb the ground less than any other type of machine of similar size.
That being said, I do not believe a Power Trac or anything else will do much useful work on a wooded 40 degree slope, and my belief is that your project, although wonderful, in places will not justify the risk.
Some enterprising immigrant brought kudzu to America as a food crop. On our place in Maryland, in some places, it has replaced all other vegetation. I'll be interested to hear how you fare in turning back the clock. I'm not sure I'll bet a lot on your ultimate success, but you'll have a great time with the project, and learn a lot, as well. (Would you like some kudzu to experiment with? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

 

[Rip]

Mike,

As Charlie mentioned, I also have a somewhat similar but also different application around our place in the central Rocky Mountains at around 8000 ft for wildfire mitigation (thinning live and removal of dead beetle-kill and slash for fuel reduction). Terrain is QUITE steep and rocky (average 25 deg, but with rocks and holes one is frequently in the 30 to 35 deg range).

I had a New Holland TC-30 (30 hp diesel 4wd) that I was seriously thinking about going to loaded turf tires (lower CG and higher fluid capacity) plus axle extentions but realized that it (or any similar CUT) still would not go where I needed to go.

I started looking at the PT Slope Mower series for the same reasons you have and liked most of what I saw. Started with the 1430, addequate power but no "real" brakes (IMHO), then up to the 1445 which had more power plus wet disc brakes.

PT was only selling the 1845 & 1850 as slope mowers with a mower head included (I have no need at all for a mower, even a brush hog type). The more I looked at them however, the more I liked the BrakeTender system, which was developed for and certified for underground mining machinery (which PT parent company also makes), seemed like truly the best aggangement.

Discussions with several 1845 owners (no 1850 owners spoke up) indicated that the 1845 was set up more for speed than torque, and I would definately be needing torque for my hills. While still debating the best option, I came across a 1 year old 1845 with single wheels but no mower deck or tilt seat for a reasonable price, and figured I could change out the wheel motors to trade speed for torque.

So I bought the used 1845 and changed out the motors. This turned out to be a bit more costly than originally envisioned, but all in all has worked out quite well for me. Although I stayed with single wheels, we did have to mount the wheel motors on 2" thick spacers for internal clearence which widened the track by 4" overall.

I was planning to go to larger tires and wheels for more ground clearence, but after useing it for a while found I really do not need to as the flat solid under belly does not hang up on anything even if you do drag over a rock or stump once in a while.

The 26x12x12 turf tires are great for low impact (in conjunction with the zero tire scrub inherrent in an articulated machine), but vulnerable to rock and stick cuts. After a number of such events this summer (and slime or such just makes repair a mess), I had the tires foam filled. While not cheap, it adds quite a bit of weight (144 lbs additional to each tire!!) down low and absolutely guarrantees no more flats.

As the PT tree shear was not available, all of our felling and cut up has been with chain saw. Now that the shear is about to be available, I have given it some consideration, but it is still not high on my list for our situation.

My primary tool has been a grapple rake by AnBo Manufacturing in Washington state. While the PT grapple bucket may well work for you ( I know others that have it generally like it), it is hard to beat this grapple rake for its intended purpose. I also rigged a top side lever for the auxilliary hydraulic circuit right next to the joy stick which makes frequent grapple operation much smoother.

As there are still many places I can not get to the downed trees on our property, I welded a 2" square hitch receiver vertically on the back of the grapple rake and mount a Warn 6000 series hydraulic winch with 150' of cable to a 2" stub and can drag logs and bundles of slash to where I can then grab it and haul it off. It runs off the hydraulic PTO circuit.

All in all, I am quite pleased with my set up and all who have seen it feel it is pretty close to ideal. It takes a bit of getting used to manuvering an articulated tractor plus working regularly on steep slopes, but then the trick is not getting too overconfident as everything has its limits.

PT designes and builds the Power Trac line much like their mining machinery and the larger models are designed for regular comercial use by highway and grounds crews no known to baby equipment. While PT has no dealers, most things on a PT can be repaired or modified by a welder, a hydraulic mechanic, and Deutz engine mechanic. (The Deutz engines are first rate by the way.)

The 1850 you are considering has a mildly turbo charged engine plus larger higher torque wheel motors to begin with, and should be a fine choice for your application.

While the PT 10 ton tree shear may be good for your application, there are several others that would work as well. The 1850 should be able to handle a variety of the smaller skid steer-type attachments out there. Most PTs will actually lift more than they are rated for also.

If you can get the machine with wide single wheels/turf tires instead of duals, I would then get wheel spacers made to set them out 3 to 4" and then foam fill them. You will have a hard time manuvering between the standing trees with duals, and you will have low enough ground pressure with the single turfs anyway.

You have quite an ambitious task ahead of you, but with time and the right machine (PT-1850 should qualify) it should be doable and perhaps even fun! Certainly a good feeling of accomplishment.

Good luck with whatever you choose!!

Rip
Bailey Colorado

 

[MikeOConnor]

Ah... Great posts guys. VERY helpful and reassuring that I'm headed down the right track. I hope Blackwell chimes in too -- but Rip and Charlie, you guys have really hit on a bunch of the questions that have been nagging at me.

Rip, your thoughts about tires really caught my attention -- I hadn't thought about foam, but I bet that would really help. And I'd have even more "sticking power" with the duallies. I've had really good luck with fluid in the tires on the 'Bota M6800 -- I routinely mow on 30 degree slopes and it's been very sticky. But I *have* been worrying about punctures up in the woods and the foam would be a great solution. I agree, slime is, well, slimy.

MossRoad, regarding the trees resprouting -- yep, some species do and we handle them differently depending on what they are. Aspens come in "clones" and those we kill by girdling the whole clone and then felling them after they're dead (usually about a year later). A lot of the other exotics (buckthorn, sumac, birch, etc.) stay nice and dead with a shot of high-concentration Tordon on the stump after we've taken them off. Charlie, I have great respect for kudzu -- my stuff's a lot easier to beat off. Mostly because the native stuff can out-compete the exotics if I keep the exotics at bay for a few years whereas kudzu overwhelms the native stuff.

Regarding the size of this project. What can I say? We'll probably have things well in hand in about 100 years or so. <grin> We've thinned about 10 acres (in "easy to reach" places with the Kubota) and the results have been spectacular. That's one of the reasons we're so keen to go after the harder-to-reach hillsides. Certainly there's no way to get this done in anything under 10-15 years without quitting my day job and driving myself nuts.

One of the beauties of this whole farm project is that every time I suggest the rational approach (hire out the work to somebody else) Marcie says "yep, but they won't do it right -- better go buy that gear and do it yourself." Is this a wonderful thing or what?? Complete alignment between guy and girl motivation.

Charlie, I think you're right -- I'd be really edgy running much of a load cross-slope at 45 degrees. Fortunately, most of my hills are more in the 30-35 degree range like Rip's, so it sounds like if I take it easy on the loads, speeds and gymnastics I'll be ok. I agree -- I hate those wild rides down hillsides. Been there, done that.

I loved the story about the manure pit -- my equivalent story is getting the (2-wheel drive) Deere stuck in the wetland, walking back to the house, bringing Marcie and the 'Gator back, getting pulled out and then getting stuck 15 feet away from the same spot on the next circuit of the field. Marcie treated me to a "you got stuck where?" look when I showed up at the house a second time. That's when I started lobbying for the 4-wheel drive Kubota.

Thanks again for the great posts -- very thoughtful and extremely helpful. I may join your gang pretty quick...

 

[Rip]

Mike,

As the 1850 comes with the 26x12x12 bar tires, you could always foam the inner set and leave the outers with just air (plus slime if wanted) and be able to remove the outers when in and among the standing trees if more manuvering ability was required. At 185 lbs each, you won't want to manhandle the foam filled ones very often. They will keep you well planted though.

Something I have been "thinking about" is a smaller version of a TimberAx ( www.loftness.com ) or a Bull Hog ( www.fecon.com ). The smallest version from either of these companies is still too big (hyd flow and weight) for a PT 1845 or 1850, but something along these lines may be out there.

The beauty of these "in-situ mulchers" is that multiple steps are reduced to one in that whole trees up to perhaps 4 to 6" plus all slash and brush are reduced to mulch on the spot without having to pick and haul it out to a burn pile or separate chipper. I've seen one in action on a medium size skid steer, and it was simply awsome!

In the absense of something like this, a hydraulic tree shear would be the next best thing.

I have the "light weight" 5' model of the AnBo grapple rake, but would suggest the standard version for your application as it would hold more slash and brush than the smaller model. Mine will grab and lift multiple logs (have not come accross any it would not handle), but does not hold as much slash as I would like which results in more lightly loaded trips back and forth.

By the way, PT still lists a used 1845 with brand new engine on their site that has been on there for over 6 months now. Might be worth considering.

You have a nice piece of property there and it is nice to see what you are doing with it. Good Luck and enjoy the process what ever you do.

 

[blackwell]

We use a 1850 on steep slopes 45 deg+, mowing , driving post, planting trees, stump cutting, some bucket work, including the grapple bucket, almost 2000 hrs. I would not advise foam filling any tires, you will loose traction and slide off the hill, in fact the soft 4 ply tires with 6 to 8 psi will not only keep you on the hill but eleminate most wheel slipage which damages the surface. Do not go to 6 or 8 ply tires, they will also cause loss of traction, the standard tires come with slime and nothing additional is needed. The ground clearence is great enough for the surfaces in your photos. The smooth underside of the machine gives a true ground clearence and dosen't hang up very easy. We have taken the 1850 in places that before we could only go with a dozer.
Good Luck,
EB