Those #+%^ engineers!

[dstig1]

SO… Architects use a computer program known as BIM (Building Information Modeling) that incorporates all the different trades into a 3D program that reviews conflicts and allows correction prior to start of construction.

I have no idea of the cost, but I believe a similar program could be used to design vehicles and other complex equipment.

Oh they absolutely do the same thing in large assemblies like vehicles. There is a systems integration function for this. But not all problems are solvable or worth solving. If you are reusing an existing engine but the structure requires bracing in a certain spot that makes it hard to get to the oil filter, you are certainly not going to change the engine, and you may look at changing the structure but determine it is not worth the time and cost. A made-up example, but the gist of how the design process goes.

As a former engineer, I can say that this is much closer to reality. ....Design for service and repair is not the only consideration or priority. That said, bad decisions still get made all the time - because it's complicated.

In my experience, the best engineers are those who also have practical, hands on experience using and fixing the stuff they are designing. And the best technicians are those who have some understanding of physics and/or engineering.

We are saying the same thing in your first point, and I couldn't agree more on your second point. When hiring new engineers I always look for some sort of clue that they are hands-on. Do they work on cars? Off roading? Home automation? Arduino or electronics stuff? Wood/metal working? Any sort of hobby or interest that shows they know the use and repair side of life. That kind of practical experience is invaluable.

 

[paulsharvey]

Blend door actuators is one of my favorites. I’ve replaced three in my lifetime. There are difficult to get at. On a car that used to be my daughters, a Chevy Impala, roughly a 2010, I spent about 15 minutes taking one bolt out and about the same amount of time putting it back in. The other two bolts were easy. The problem is the gears in these things are so cheap.

Wife had an 08 Impala; and i did the blend door actuator... Its not necessarily "Hard" but its upside down, backwards, tiny, and you can't hardly fit a hand in, all while laying half on the seat/half hanging out of the passenger side door.

 

[Jstpssng]

An engineer's purgatory; in the afterlife, he will have to work on what he designed.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, not vehicles, but I deal with civil engineers daily. Yes, we find mistakes, but sometimes there are good reasons for the mistakes, and some are comprises, and others, for different reasons.

One thing ive seen, each layer is its own layer on Autocad, and generally they are good, but often they either don't stack them, or they dont stack after a change; leading to conflicts

Another thing, cheap clients... So, lets say im an engineer, and you want a civil set for your liquor store. I say, the base cost is $20k, but do you want SUE (subsurface utility engineering/soft digs to verify water main/sewer location) for $5000, or you want what the utility department hands me; you want survey of only your property or a out into the road, for another $2500? You want me to include 2 hours of "post design services' or do you want 8 hours at $300/hr?(Thats basically trouble shooting, dealing with things that come up). Most clients want the $20k and dont consider what a water main being 5 ft under the road vs under the sidewalk costs.... and they squeal when they see the change orders.

Also, not every "mistake" is actually a mistake. Someone mentioned spark plugs; thats a 150k+ miles item, and not something thats a PM service these days, so ease of access really is a non factor.

Other times, very good designs are value engineered away

 

[Oaktree]

Also, not every "mistake" is actually a mistake. Someone mentioned spark plugs; thats a 150k+ miles item, and not something thats a PM service these days, so ease of access really is a non factor.

OK, maybe not plugs these days, but filters and bulbs still need replacing, yet are many times in difficult to reach locations.
Likewise for making operations needlessly complicated, moving commonly used functions in vehicles to touch screens (sometimes several menu layers down) is one of them.

 

[BravoXray]

Automotive engineers should be required to work on cars for 5 years before they are allowed to design them.

 

[dstig1]

Ah yes, the touch screen fad. I think it has mostly peaked and is fading somewhat now. I get the reasons: Hey we've already got this nice big touchscreen for nav, etc. If we use it to control EVERYTHING, we can get rid of a bunch of pricey buttons knobs and switches, since we are going to have the screen in any case. Much cleaner design and cost savings! But they are a horrible way to handle many quick intuitive tasks with a knob like turning the volume up/down, de/increasing the fan or temp, or changing radio presets to another channel.

My 2023 Ranger has a good blend, IMO. There is a full set of redundant HVAC controls in the screen, and some of the more complex stuff that you rarely do, but fan, temp and basic modes are all also on buttons. You want max defrost, hit that button. Because when you need max defrost you want it NOW

 

[Shawn T. W.]

I really have no idea what's in my screen, other than the clock ... Half the time I just turn the screen off, I have no use for it!

Instead of working on cars 5 years BEFORE becoming a engineer, maybe for the next 5 years AFTER they design something, they should work on there own handiwork!

 

[paulsharvey]

I agree with much of what's said here, but my nature is to be the devil's advocate...

So, we dont always know what the "design life" of a part/assembly is, or even the design life of the vehicle as a whole. So, what even is the design life span of a vehicle? Some quick Google, says 5 "blocks" of 30,000 miles. Any typical components are designs to have a life span of 150,000 miles or 8-12 years.

So, if the design life is 150k miles/8 years (we will never know, im sure that proprietary info), a touch screen failing at 200k isnt a failure (or a starter, transmission, u-joint, or whatever), its an "end of useful life" issue. Dont have to like it, its just how all design works; someone sets a project scope and spec, then designers design to meet that spec/scope; NOT design the best thing possible.

Reason I bring this up, can you design a bridge that can take 5 million pounds, sure, but if the design is for 1 million pounds live load, and it fails at 2.5m, dont blame the designers, blame the spec/scope team. With that, that bridge is designed for a 50-75 year life span, generally, (with periodic repairs, maintenance, rehab). So, if a bridge from 1950 is failing, the designers did their job.

 

[not2old]

On my 2005 Harley Sportster, I had to remove the muffler to change the rear tire. When putting it back together, the axle went in from the other side.
I had a Volvo V70R that I cut a hole in the floor to change the fuel pump. It has a saddle type tank that straddles the rear drive shaft. To remove the tank you needed to also remove the rear drive shaft and complete independent rear suspension. I don't know how the gas gets from one side of the tank to the other.