Thoughts of a Land Surveyor.

[dodge man]

It seems like nothing gets the post count up like a good old boundary dispute. I thought I would just put some of my thoughts down in regards to these matters. Keep in mind this advice is worth what you are paying for it, in other words nothing.

First off I'm licensed in two states, Illinois and Iowa and I got my Illinois license in 1992. I don't have a count but I have probably done close to a 1000 boundary surveys over the years, all kinds, commercial, residential, rural, lots in town, I've worked in Chicago and down south by St. Louis.

Keep in mind a surveyor in not your advocate. He won't put the boundary where you want it, he will put it where it belongs in his professional opinion. A lawyer is your advocate. He may tell you that you have a terrible case, but if you will pay his bills he will represent you all the way to the supreme court if needed.

When a person buys a house or piece of property, it is most likely the largest investment they will make in their life. Why not get it surveyed BEFORE you buy it? Yes problems may show up, your dream house might have a problem you wish wasn't there but at least you know it before you buy it. I have on more than one occasion heard people say "there wasn't a problem until the surveyor showed up". Of course the problem was there before hand they just didn't know about it. Getting surveys done before buying seems to be a regional thing. In my area more than 90% of sales don't get a survey performed.

Leave emotion out of it if you have a problem. For some reason people get very emotional, angry, protective and even a little crazy when they think someone is infringing on their rights. I've seen grown men and women, that I consider intelligent reasonable people just lose all sense of direction and even get arrested. Put a price on your problem. Are you fighting over a piece of ground that is 200 feet wide by 10 deep? What is that ground worth? Even at an inflated price that is $3000 worth of land. Is it worth $20,000 in lawyer fees to keep it? I have yet to see anybody win when it comes to a dispute that goes to court. The winner is really a loser too when you look at the cost.

Land surveying like all things in life is half science and half dark arts. Sometimes the answer is black and white, there is only one correct was to survey the property. Other times its not black and white and takes a lot of time and research and field work. The most important tool in surveying is not a GPS system or a total station, its a shovel. If you don't dig up corners, stones, rebar, old pipe etc you aren't looking for the evidence. The answer isn't in the black box hooked to the GPS, a GIS system or a computer, its on the ground. Like many things, the quality of a surveyors work varies, you get what you pay for. I take a huge amount of pride in what I do for a living. There is very few things I am really good at but I like to think land surveying in one of them.

I'll finish by saying there are times you need to get a surveyor and a lawyer involved. In my 34 plus years of surveying, 26 years of it licensed, I've seen a few cases where a person was truly getting screwed. In one case a person had been to court and was being pressured to settle a case even though he was right. He couldn't afford a survey or a lawyer. I ended up doing a $2000 survey for $500. In another case I did the work for free. I'm lucky in the fact that my boss let me do this work at reduced cost or for free.

I hope I brought a little perceptive to how a surveyor views things related to boundaries. To be honest most of the disputes I read about on here sound petty. I always try to look at the other side of the story also, but based on my experience, I also realize these don't seem petty to the person living it.

 

[Silvic]

Well said and thank you for your thoughts on the matter

 

[Dadnatron]

I appreciate the input into this realm.

When you say 'you get what you pay for'.... how do we, as buyers of 'your' service, determine the accuracy/worth of a survey?

If a survey done for purchase is found to be 'wrong'... how is it determined to be wrong?

And if there is a significant discrepancy from what is 'thought' to be the line vs what you survey as the line... how are we as purchasers/sellers able to determine that you are indeed correct vs you are one of the inaccurate surveyors of which you speak?

 

[Oldoak]

For the most part, most of what you say is only "common sense".

However, many old boundary markers no longer exist, such as old trees and stones called out in the original deed descriptions, even the acreage in many old deeds is not correct. And then there are cases where even certified, licensed land surveyors don't agree on where the boundary lines fall. I have come to the opinion that nothing is "absolute" in this day and age.

I have personally never had a survey problem with my four different land purchases, but have seen these problems give other people severe headaches. Gone are the days when neighborly farmers just went by old stonewalls and fence rows as boundary lines regardless of the actual deed co-ordinance. Welcome to the land of developers and sub-urban sprawl.

Edit: Forgot to mention the original deed for my brother's farm was called out in rods and chains as units for measurements.

 

[dodge man]

Dadnatron, those are really good questions.

How do you find a good surveyor? Word of mouth? Sometimes title companies might know. Sometimes people say a surveyor is great because he is cheap not because he is good. I try to spend some time when a person comes in or calls and explain what we do, I hope that gives a good impression but I'm not sure. I feel education of the public is part of my job even if it doesn't pay. I wish I had good answer for this question but I don't.

How is a survey determined to be wrong. I'll give examples. I did a survey next door to one that had been done wrong. No two ways around it, I found the original corners and the other guy just didn't do a good job. The land owner that had the wrong survey saw me out there and I told her what I found. She had put up an expensive fence to keep her horses in. The other guy didn't really admit he was wrong but the person I was working for sold the lady the land to make her fence good. The other surveyor paid for some or all of this to happen.

In another case, the one I alluded to above at doing it at reduced cost, the other surveyor also screwed up bad. The guy I was working for lost access to a shed because the other surveyor showed the boundary line about 2 inches from the shed door. I found the mistake and drew a plat up. The neighbor who paid for the incorrect survey then hired another surveyor to check my work. He agreed with what I did, so she dropped her law suit. She was out a pretty good chunk of cash.

Your third question, what happens when where people think the line should be is different from what the surveyor says? The biggest challenge in surveying is this very subject. Its where art merges with science. When is the occupation line, fence line, place where people mow and think the line should be compared to where the deed says the line is. There is not a correct answer sometimes. Sometimes a fence is just a fence and not related to the boundary. Other times even though a fence doesn't fit the distances perfect, it should be the boundary line. Our job isn't to correct past surveys but honor them. The general rule is a corner should be accepted unless gross error or fraud was involved. Some times our job is to create the least amount of chaos possible. Other times creating chaos may be the correct answer even if people don't like it.

 

[Dadnatron]

And then there are cases where even certified, licensed land surveyors don't agree on where the boundary lines fall. I have come to the opinion that nothing is "absolute" in this day and age.

A few years ago... the '4 Corners' ie, the junction of Colorado, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico was determined to be in the wrong place. I don't remember how far off it was, but it was relatively substantial considering it affected 4 States. It created quite an uproar at the time... and finally, I think they just decided to leave well enough alone.

 

[Birdhunter1]

"If you don't dig up corners, stones, rebar, old pipe etc you aren't looking for the evidence. "

It amazes me how many times I've replaced corner posts in fences where three farms met, and had been separate farms like that at that corner for at least 70 years, when I started digging a hole for the new post there was a stack of rocks against the old post on all four sides. It was kind of cool in a way as it could have been either of my grandfathers that had placed them there and just to keep the world in check I made sure the stones were put back in the same place and same order as they were before.

 

[Guidshir]

Great information.
When I bought my land I did not get a survey done because there had been a professional survey done 10 years before and that survey was registered with the county. If it had been old and based on rocks and stumps I probably would have had one done.

 

[dodge man]

The four corners was a huge fiasco. On USGS maps they show control points. There happened to be a control point in the general area of the four corners but several hundred feet or more away as I recall. This control point would be something like a bench mark or something I would setup my GPS on. Some reporter saw this on the USGS map and said look, this is where the four corners should really be! The national news grabbed a hold of this story and ran with it even though in reality there was never a problem.

I said above a shovel is the most important tool, in reality its a spade, metal detector and a tile probe. The tile probe is how I found stones. The problem is when is a stone a surveyors stone or when is it just another rock? That's what we get paid to figure out.

 

[dodge man]

One more point I'll add, surveyors, judges, lawyers don't really have control over boundary corners or land, the land owners do. When land owners see the corners I set, honor them, build fences to them, they validate my work. They say "look, that's a corner Dodge Man set, that's my corner". The neighbor says "yes it is, that's my corner too". They have validated my work. If they say "that Dodge Man is an idiot, he doesn't know what he is doing, let put the corner over here". They have invalidated my work, made it worthless, all my education, expensive equipment is trumped by what the landowners did. Landowners have control over their boundaries, its when they don't agree that problems arise.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

One more point I'll add, surveyors, judges, lawyers don't really have control over boundary corners or land, the land owners do. When land owners see the corners I set, honor them, build fences to them, they validate my work. They say "look, that's a corner Dodge Man set, that's my corner". The neighbor says "yes it is, that's my corner too". They have validated my work. If they say "that Dodge Man is an idiot, he doesn't know what he is doing, let put the corner over here". They have invalidated my work, made it worthless, all my education, expensive equipment is trumped by what the landowners did. Landowners have control over their boundaries, its when they don't agree that problems arise.

I know our surveyor has done probably 6 different surveys for us, in the past six years. Very well respected man and surveyor. But, in his words, if you don't file the survey at the courthouse it isn't a legal document, it is only his opinion. Our case has been a little different than finding corners, so maybe that has something to do with it.

 

[dodge man]

Some states are recording states, they require a survey to be recorded. Illinois is not a recording state, so my work doesn't have to be recorded, although I encourage people to do it. The exception would be subdivisions, they need to be recorded.

 

[95XL883]

Dodge Man, Dadnatron,

Let me give another example of a surveyor's mistake. I am really curious to hear Dodge Man's take. (To cut the suspense, while I had a legal right to push the issue, it would have been very contentious. In my judgement, by dropping the matter, i didn't risk anything even though I was giving something up. As long as I wasn't risking anything, I was willing to let the matter drop, even if it wasn't fixed correctly.)

When my wife and I were looking at our property, we were told generally where the corners were and that a survey had been done. We entered into a contract to buy the property with one of the conditions being that we were given a copy of the survey. When we got the copy, we looked at it closely and my wife kept saying she didn't understand one thing. About the fifth time trying to explain it to her, I finally understood her question. She had found a gross error on the survey that was in our favor.

Going back to when that survey was done, there was one 50 acre rectangular tract. The surveyor was apparently hired to split it into what we were told was 40 acre tract and a 10 acre tract. He drew up the metes and bounds descriptions of the two tracts. The problem was the corners specified in that description didn't agree by a substantial amount, about 550', from where the seller of our tract was acting like the corners were and where the corners had been set (rebar in concrete). (The supposed 10 acre tract was a vacant house in foreclosure. It was owed by the FHA waiting for the redemption period to expire.) The discrepancy was also in the description of the supposed 10 acre tract.

I'll try to make this simple but metes and bounds is somewhat difficult. From the agree upon starting point, our northwest corner, (corner #1) the description read to go south 1,604 feet (corner #2), then west say 700' (I don't remember exactly this number)(corner #3) and then south another 600' (again that number is approximate)(corner #4) then west to the section/quarter section line (corner #5), back north to the next section/quarter section line(corner #6), then east 1,340' to the point of beginning (corner #1). The discrepancy came at corners 2, 3, 4 and 5. They were set (rebar in concrete) about 550 north of the metes and bounds description. People had accepted an old fence as the property line but it didn't match any of these corners and covered only part of one side of the foreclosure property. My wife and I were the ones who went looking for the set corners and tried to match them to the legal description. So the mistake is each of four corners as set by rebar in concrete were about 550 feet different from the metes and bounds description. This was a 10 acre discrepancy.

If we had followed the metes and bounds description, we would have had a much larger tract which would have included a poorly built and maintained house in foreclosure than what the realtor had shown us. The FHA would have been screwed but they seem to be so poorly run who knows what they would have done. And a third land owner would have been very upset as title to about 10 acres of his ground had been "given away" by the metes and bounds description by the original surveyor.

From my perspective, we had a contract to buy a piece of ground about 10 acres larger than what we were being shown. In discussing this with the original surveyor, he told me, quite rudely, to go pound sand. In discussing this with the title insurer they stated the correct way for this to be "fixed" (assuming I was willing to settle for what I had been shown rather that what I had contracted to buy) was for the seller of my property to sign and file an amended metes and bounds description. The FHA would also have to sign an amended metes and bounds description. (Yeah, like that would ever happen in any type of timely fashion.)

Here is where I got my lesson in small town businesses and government as being incestuous. The original surveyor was the brother to the owner of the closing company. The county recorder was their sister. Once they realized the discrepancy, they "circled the wagons" to protect the surveyor/brother loudly proclaiming that the rebar set in concrete were the correct corners (It was more convoluted than that as there was a fence that was recognized as the property line but it quickly didn't follow the legal description and covered only a part of one side of the other tract. In addition, the rebar in concrete for two corners couldn't be located even with metal detectors or probing rods.) Instead of getting the seller's and the FHA's sign off adjusted metes and bounds descriptions, the owner of the closing company drafted a notice of correction (his termed) and filed it with his sister, the county recorder.

Other than a lot of legal fees and a long dispute, who knows how it would have turned out had we pushed to follow the original metes and bounds description. In the end, I hired a new surveyor who rewrote the metes and bounds to match corners 1, 2 and 6 as set by rebar in concrete and set new corners 3, 4 and 5 (rebar in concrete). The title insurer agreed to insure the property to that description. I immediately had a good fence installed between corners 2, 3 and 4 to minimize any confusion when the foreclosed property eventually sold and stop trespassers coming across that property onto mine. It seems to have worked. So far, now four plus years later, nobody has ever questioned the lines to my knowledge. Of course, it would be silly for anybody other than me to not accept it as I would wind up with another 10 acres and a house. It does bother me how rude the original surveyor was and that the adjustment wasn't done to the title insurer's direction. But I'm enjoying my ground and I don't see where I'm at any risk. Now, the people claiming title to the 10 acres to the south of me have some risk but there risk lessens with time. Hopefully this one never sees a lawyers involved dispute.

Dodge man, I'd like a truthful observation but regardless, I am resolved to be happy with what I've got and am chalking it up as a learning experience as to how I would handle it differently if I ever am in that position again. Thanks for any input you can give me.

 

[dodge man]

To be honest, from your description I don't really have a clear picture of the survey problem. With that said, it sounds like its pretty clear you understood what was meant to be done. There is a long standing principal that the intent of the parties is most important. It sounds like you knew the intents of the original survey, screwed up or not, and did the right thing by not trying to claim more than was intended. It would have been hard to claim a house you didn't think you were getting. I think I said above that property corners hold once they are set even if in error. The exception would be fraud or gross error. It sounds like this would be considered a gross error.

 

[Streetcar]

In surveying for road projects, I am amazed the number of times there are2 to 3 pins set within a couple of feet of each other

 

[two_bit_score]

Good thread!

 

[95XL883]

To be honest, from your description I don't really have a clear picture of the survey problem. With that said, it sounds like its pretty clear you understood what was meant to be done. There is a long standing principal that the intent of the parties is most important. It sounds like you knew the intents of the original survey, screwed up or not, and did the right thing by not trying to claim more than was intended. It would have been hard to claim a house you didn't think you were getting. I think I said above that property corners hold once they are set even if in error. The exception would be fraud or gross error. It sounds like this would be considered a gross error.

Thanks Dave. Sorry, I wasn't clearer. Metes and bounds is hard without a map or actually walking the ground. But you did get the point that in my opinion there was a serious discrepancy between the metes and bounds and the corner sets. (I still wish I could have found those two missing corner sets. Then again that may have really confused the situation.)

I don't want to say what the original intent was although it made sense to not follow the metes and bounds. In any event, I don't think I risked anything and I'm happy with what I got for what I paid. Thanks again.

 

[ustmd]

dodge man,

Thanks for your efforts on this thread.

Just a general question, how repeatable should I expect multiple surveys of the same plat (or adjacent one) is it reasonable to expect? In other words, is there a generally accepted level of error? I understand with locator pins, there should be a high level of accuracy, but once you get into bearing/distance, I can see accuracy issues showing up.

No hidden agenda behind the question. Just curious if my general rule of thumb of putting fences at least 1 foot inside the property line is sufficient to avoid arguments with the next neighbor and their well meaning/working to acceptable guidelines surveyor.

 

[dodge man]

That question can depend on the size of the survey. For a lot in town I would say offsetting your fence a foot is more than enough or too much. For a rural survey, not a bad idea.

We measure to the nearest 0.01 of a foot which is 1/8 of an inch. We can not really measure that close but almost. Part of the problem is the stability. Corners get frost heave, equipment or mowers run them over, utility companies work near them etc.

As a general rule on a modern survey I like my measurements to repeat with in 0.10 feet or a little better, which is a little more than an inch. I like to see better than that, say 0.04 feet on smaller lot surveys.

 

[Opti-Mist]

Very interesting. After settling an estate for a deceased relative, I received a tax delinquency notice for a parcel. When I drew up the description I realized that it actually was the end of a county road which had at one time been a part of the original property which had been subdivided and an access road created. Needless to say no one at the county was interested so I chose to ignore the issue. Then someone bought the deed at the tax sale. Once they figured it out, they contacted me to see if I would sign a deed to them so they could get rid of it by deeding it to the county. Of course I would, and did, and the county became the owner of the road which they had been maintaining for years.