Thoughts of a Land Surveyor.

[ericm979]

Thanks Dodge Man and others for posting their wisdom.

One small thing I can add from experience is to not pay the surveyor until you have the report in your hands. When buying our current place our real estate agent set up an escrow fund to pay the surveyor once the survey was done and we got the report. Only there was a mis communication and the escrow was released before we got the report. They did the work- we saw them out there- but once they got paid they stopped. We called a bunch of times and asked for the report. They were always going to send it soon and never did. Eventually we gave up.

So make sure you really don't pay until you get the report.

Good thing is that we and all the neighbors agree where the boundaries are and the markers even line up with the old fence lines. The guy in the neighborhood who sued everyone never bothered us. Of course that could change with a new neighbor.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

Thank you Dodge Man for this educational thread.

Property line disputes are so touchy. I have a relative who has initiated legal action over just a few inches. Twice. Both times his life became **** as it is no fun to live next door to your sworn enemy. Tried to warn him both times but he insisted on his "rights."

On my property I know there's a problem. The neighbor farmer has sturdy fences to keep his cows in, supposedly at the property lines. The plat clearly shows the property lines and mine's a perfect rectangle that's slightly wider at the top than at the bottom. However, his fence has a very large "jog" at one point, say 40-feet in and 100 feet down. On the plat there is no jog. Mr. Logic says either he has fenced in part of my property, or has acceded part of his property to me. (Mr. Logic also has a bet on which one of these is more likely. ) There is a large spring right there, so that may be why. Worth pursuing? Acreage-wise probably not. The spring makes it more interesting. But I'm still thinking no.

If I ever buy another property I will pursue these things much more vigorously at the beginning. We get caught up in the romance and excitement of a new property, often to our detriment I think.

 

[747driver]

Great thread Dodge Man ! I have the thread on the damaged trees ! When the surveyor came out last week to do the new property, which prior surveys were done by him on bordering neighbors property . His markings for our property and bordering properties were on the exact spot the Plat of survey showed. He had to do as you pointed out...use a shovel, magnet and rod to find the stakes but they were there. We will get his report in a few weeks in which then he gets paid. We have to record this survey with the state of Tenn. to make it legal once he gives us a stamped and sealed survey.

 

[vvanders]

Thanks Dodge Man and others for posting their wisdom.

One small thing I can add from experience is to not pay the surveyor until you have the report in your hands. When buying our current place our real estate agent set up an escrow fund to pay the surveyor once the survey was done and we got the report. Only there was a mis communication and the escrow was released before we got the report. They did the work- we saw them out there- but once they got paid they stopped. We called a bunch of times and asked for the report. They were always going to send it soon and never did. Eventually we gave up.

So make sure you really don't pay until you get the report.

Good thing is that we and all the neighbors agree where the boundaries are and the markers even line up with the old fence lines. The guy in the neighborhood who sued everyone never bothered us. Of course that could change with a new neighbor.

Yeah, that's a good idea for any contractor. If you know you'll have more work down the road mention that too. Much less likely to screw over future business.

 

[Al 2]

For more info on surveys and why you should get a survey almost every time you do a land transfer, search out Bob Aaron, a Toronto real estate lawyer and his advice columns in the Toronto Star here:
bob aaron get a survey - Google Search
Numerous articles , search thru them if you are dealing with a particular situation and you might find a suggestion. Keep in mind this is Ontario and as the OP stated , the advice is free.
Al

 

[dodge man]

In surveying for road projects, I am amazed the number of times there are2 to 3 pins set within a couple of feet of each other

This is one thing that plagues the surveying community. We call them pin cushions. I have a place in Iowa that I dug up a property corner and there was 5 of them in within a foot of each other. What does this tell the property owner? That we can't even agree with each other. It does not give a good impression.

I think it is done with the mistake belief that the deed distances should govern. Kind of a computer tells me the answer mentality. If a persons deed says they own a 100 feet, I have to make it a 100 feet even if I find a pin 99.80 feet away. What I do is show a measured and platted distance, its suppose to be a 100 feet but it measures 99.80 feet. Truth is I could survey it again a week later and find the distance is 99.82 feet.

There is a little short story called John Little Acre. It tells a story of the 1 acre parcel and how the corners are in place over a long period of time, it gets surveyed over and over and keeps changing but the pins are in the same place the entire time.


The Story of John's Little Acre
Now John was a friend of Billy so when he moved to the Bitterroot Valley in 1895, Bill deeded him an acre of
land for his homesite. The two men agreed on the boundaries, paced the distances, and drove buggy axles
on the four corners. They then estimated that the SW corner was about 200 yards NE of the SW corner of
Section 23, and a point of beginning was established for John's little acre.
In 1898 John decided to get married and mortgaged his acre to acquire funds to improve the house. The
bank required a survey of the property, so a man with a compass and chain was hired. Due to a deposit of
iron ore near the SW corner of Section 23, his bearings were erratic and since the area was brush, his
distances left something to be desired, but the buggy axles were there and still marked the true boundaries
of John's little acre.
By 1910 the orchard boom was on. The area had been cleared and planted to apple trees. The bearing trees
had been cut and the section corner stone covered with soil. An orchard development company had
purchased Billy's 160 acres and directed their surveyor to locate the exception which was Johnç—´ little acre.
The surveyor, assuming that the section corner was lost, found the four buggy axles and using the erroneous
data from the previous survey, set a pipe to mark the SW corner of Section 23. Using a transit and steel tape,
he retraced the angle and distances between the found buggy axles and prepared a new description (the
third) for John's little acre.
During construction of a county road in 1920, the corner stone on the SW corner of Section 23 was found and
reset beneath the road surface. In 1921 the four buggy axles were tied to the true section corner and a new
description (the fourth) prepared for John's little acre. In 1960, a theodolite was used, and the bearings
corrected slightly on John's little acre. In 1970, an electronic measuring device was used and the distances
corrected slightly on John's little acre.
And so it came to pass that by 1970, John's little acre had numerous descriptions, but it had in fact never
changed. The true boundaries were still marked by the four buggy axles, the bearings and distance bore
little resemblance to the original deed, the acreage was actually 1.265 acres, but it was still John's little acre.

 

[fried1765]

It seems like nothing gets the post count up like a good old boundary dispute. I thought I would just put some of my thoughts down in regards to these matters. Keep in mind this advice is worth what you are paying for it, in other words nothing.

First off I'm licensed in two states, Illinois and Iowa and I got my Illinois license in 1992. I don't have a count but I have probably done close to a 1000 boundary surveys over the years, all kinds, commercial, residential, rural, lots in town, I've worked in Chicago and down south by St. Louis.

Keep in mind a surveyor in not your advocate. He won't put the boundary where you want it, he will put it where it belongs in his professional opinion. A lawyer is your advocate. He may tell you that you have a terrible case, but if you will pay his bills he will represent you all the way to the supreme court if needed.

When a person buys a house or piece of property, it is most likely the largest investment they will make in their life. Why not get it surveyed BEFORE you buy it? Yes problems may show up, your dream house might have a problem you wish wasn't there but at least you know it before you buy it. I have on more than one occasion heard people say "there wasn't a problem until the surveyor showed up". Of course the problem was there before hand they just didn't know about it. Getting surveys done before buying seems to be a regional thing. In my area more than 90% of sales don't get a survey performed.

Leave emotion out of it if you have a problem. For some reason people get very emotional, angry, protective and even a little crazy when they think someone is infringing on their rights. I've seen grown men and women, that I consider intelligent reasonable people just lose all sense of direction and even get arrested. Put a price on your problem. Are you fighting over a piece of ground that is 200 feet wide by 10 deep? What is that ground worth? Even at an inflated price that is $3000 worth of land. Is it worth $20,000 in lawyer fees to keep it? I have yet to see anybody win when it comes to a dispute that goes to court. The winner is really a loser too when you look at the cost.

Land surveying like all things in life is half science and half dark arts. Sometimes the answer is black and white, there is only one correct was to survey the property. Other times its not black and white and takes a lot of time and research and field work. The most important tool in surveying is not a GPS system or a total station, its a shovel. If you don't dig up corners, stones, rebar, old pipe etc you aren't looking for the evidence. The answer isn't in the black box hooked to the GPS, a GIS system or a computer, its on the ground. Like many things, the quality of a surveyors work varies, you get what you pay for. I take a huge amount of pride in what I do for a living. There is very few things I am really good at but I like to think land surveying in one of them.

I'll finish by saying there are times you need to get a surveyor and a lawyer involved. In my 34 plus years of surveying, 26 years of it licensed, I've seen a few cases where a person was truly getting screwed. In one case a person had been to court and was being pressured to settle a case even though he was right. He couldn't afford a survey or a lawyer. I ended up doing a $2000 survey for $500. In another case I did the work for free. I'm lucky in the fact that my boss let me do this work at reduced cost or for free.

I hope I brought a little perceptive to how a surveyor views things related to boundaries. To be honest most of the disputes I read about on here sound petty. I always try to look at the other side of the story also, but based on my experience, I also realize these don't seem petty to the person living it.

"Fighting over a piece of ground that is 200 feet wide by 10 deep",........ actually that can be a very worthwhile fight.

Assume that local zoning requires 40,000 sq. ft. lots, and lots sell for $250,000+ each
2000 sq. ft. (200 x 10) is in dispute, on a 40,000 sq. ft. lot that your client owns.
The lot is not buildable at 38,000 sq. ft.
It certainly could be "worth $20,000 in lawyer fees" to fight over that 2000 sq. ft.

Would probably not be logical in Illinois,( lake Michigan being the exception) but happens throughout the nation, with coastal, and prime lakefront property.

 

[dodge man]

I agree, each situation is different. As a rule though most disputes don't work out in anyone's favor money wise. I have heard more than once someone say "its a matter of principal".

 

[Jstpssng]

This, of at least the original post should be made as a "sticky."

 

[Argonne]

The weight of precedence is a bit confusing to me. Is there a simple way to express how much legal "weight" is given to a "found pin" when it differs significantly from a new survey conducted by modern means? Is it up to the individual surveyor to certify that the found pin is close enough or not? In a new survey, the there a place to record errors found, or does the new certification pretty much erase any evidence of found errors?

I might be asking the same question in a different way, we're kind of running you like a rented mule here.

 

[oosik]

For twenty plus years I was the individual who reviewed subdivision plats in Municipality of Anchorage for environmental acceptability. In plain English - can homes be built in this subdivision without creating a sewerage or water supply nightmare. I worked very closely with half a dozen survey companies in Anchorage.

One old surveyor alway said - - "the accuracy of the survey will depend upon the value of the land. In the open wilds of western Montana - a foot here or there makes little difference. In downtown New York city - people will live or die over 1/1000 of an inch".

 

[dodge man]

Argonne there is no magic number for when a found corner should be used or rejected. It is a case by case basis. There might be some places a corner could be off a small amount and it should be ignored. There might be another place where a corner should be used but the distance is off hundreds of feet.

A real world example. A guy built a garage onto his house. It was over the line a couple of feet. Neighbor hires a surveyor and then builds a fence against the guys garage so he can not maintain it. He hires me to check the other surveyors work. He points out a pin and said he used it to build his garage. In this case I found a lot of the pins from the original survey. The corner he used to build his garage did not fit the pattern. The others were close to the original distances, an inch or so, but this one pin was a few feet out of position so I rejected it and so did the other surveyor.

The other surveyor screwed up and set new pins when the old ones were there but it made very little difference. This one bounced around the lawyers a few years and the finally gave up and tore down a garage that had been in place for over thirty years.

 

[/pine]

I'm familiar with a parcel of land along a river that was subdivided into about a dozen lots all about the same size (average 100' wide and 350' deep)...I was here when the original survey laying out the lots was done and know exactly where the original corner pins are...

On a few occasions where one or more of the lots changed hands and a new survey was done...the new surveys never once agreed with where the original pins should be...some would be different by nearly 3'...

 

[fried1765]

I'm familiar with a parcel of land along a river that was subdivided into about a dozen lots all about the same size (average 100' wide and 350' deep)...I was here when the original survey laying out the lots was done and know exactly where the original corner pins are...

On a few occasions where one or more of the lots changed hands and a new survey was done...the new surveys never once agreed with where the original pins should be...some would be different by nearly 3'...

"Pins" can, or could have been moved, by the property owner, or others, over time, and may be of questionable reliability
A drill hole in a (large) rock, or some other fixed landmark, should be honored as an actual point on a property survey even if the measurements given do not exactly coincide.

 

[/pine]

"Pins" can, or could have been moved, by the property owner, or others, over time.
A drill hole in a rock, or some other fixed landmark, should be honored as an accurate point on a property survey even if the measurements given do not coincide exactly.

Not the case here...like I said I know exactly where a majority of the original pins were established during the original survey...they have/had never been moved...driven rebar below grade with additional pins/markers extended above...

What's baffling is the warranty by a few of the surveyors states they would swear under oath their surveys were correct even though they differ from the original survey plats...

 

[dodge man]

I have yet to find an old property corner that has had a camera pointed at it for the last 100 years. Each surveyor has to to decide if a corner has been disturbed or not.

 

[/pine]

I have yet to find an old property corner that has had a camera pointed at it for the last 100 years. Each surveyor has to to decide if a corner has been disturbed or not.

In this instance I know for a fact (I was here when it was originally done and have been here since (about 45 years))...one of the pins in question is one of my own corners...it has never been moved or tampered with and it is one where a newer survey says it's about 3' off the mark...which I know for a fact it is not...to this day the original pin is dead on the number if you pull a chain (surveyors tape measure) from another of the original pegs...according to the length stated on the original survey plat...

 

[dodge man]

Like I said earlier original corners should hold. Did the surveyor talk to you? We are allowed to take peoples testimonies into account.

 

[JamesHW]

The two back corners on our are marked with capped galvanized pipe driven over the driven pin placed by a surveyor in the late 60’s. The northern and southern lines on our platt correspond to lot lines laid out for Kayaderossera Patent grant of land made by Anne, Queen of Great Britain in 1701 to thirteen subjects. I remember there used to be a bronze geodetic survey marker on the line in the middle of the road the runs along the western line. I have a surveyor for an ancestor from Scotland and it has always interested me.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

When we bought our property here in Virginia six years ago three parcels of land came with the house. No survey was on record and the last known was decades old. Unfortunately for one of our neighbors the county GIS was way off. What he always thought to be his land turned out to be our land. He " lost " about 2.5 acres of land. As you all can imagine, he was not happy. Turned out our property line was about 25 ft off of the side of his house. So... irate neighbor huffs and puffs all over town, I stole his property... of course I told everyone that was where I was going to park old junk cars and put a compost pile and chicken house, he shut up... Still won't wave at me though...