Three-point Attachment Question

[motoalliance]

Hey TBN gang,
We've been in the implement business for several years -- all related to ATV/UTV and Cat 0 implements (rakes, blades, scrapers, discs, etc.)

We have an opportunity to get into the Category 1 arena with some larger implements in partnership with a company (Lionforge) that has a pretty slick attachment system that eliminates the three-point attachment method. You can see a video here that teases it a bit: Simplement - The Modular Implement Receiver System - YouTube

In all our interactions, Lionforge is a quality company with a lot of innovation potential. If we did this, we'd include 4-6 of the most popular attachments that have innovation in them with a mind to expanding to a full range of 25 attachments or more.

I'd appreciate any feedback about the positives and negatives of the three-point attachment system.

Thanks gang.

Peter Kapsner
President
Motoalliance
MotoAlliance, Inc.

 

[Hozzie]

As a Product Manager myself, I would ask, what is the competitive advantage of this vs a quick hitch? There is a huge market already out there for quick hitch attachments. I am trying to figure out why I would consider converting my attachments I already have to this?

Not trying to be negative, just wonder what the expected benefits would be to me.

 

[motoalliance]

My thoughts exactly, Hozzie. I asked LionForge that question it was a pretty long list of suggested benefits. I haven't evaluated them all yet (we are in prototype phase just now), but some of what were suggested included:

1. Cross compatible with Cat 1 and Cat 2 implements.
2. Allow for some versatility with implements -- like the box scraper we'd introduce would be able to pivot, angle, reverse, etc. with this attachment.
3. Can be used on front and rear of tractor.
4. Can use a post hole digger.
5. Easily operable from the cab or seat with hydraulic friendly options.
6. Adapters can accept any brand.

Those were just a few of the what seemed to be two dozen reasons for it. Again, I'm just evaluating myself.

Do you see any specific issues with the 3-point system that need to be resolved?

 

[Hozzie]

My comments below. I am sure others will have more feedback, but these are general thoughts on my part.

My thoughts exactly, Hozzie. I asked LionForge that question it was a pretty long list of suggested benefits. I haven't evaluated them all yet (we are in prototype phase just now), but some of what were suggested included:

1. Cross compatible with Cat 1 and Cat 2 implements.
- Most new attachments already support this. Check out Everything Attachments and look at some of their implements like the box blades. You will see how most are supporting this now.

2. Allow for some versatility with implements -- like the box scraper we'd introduce would be able to pivot, angle, reverse, etc. with this attachment.
- Unless I am missing something, this also already exists. In some cases, it is manual adjustments, in others one uses hydraulic connections to do it form the operators station.

3. Can be used on front and rear of tractor.
- This also exists. I assume they would make some type of quick attach for loaders that support them.

4. Can use a post hole digger.
- Also already supported via quick hitch

5. Easily operable from the cab or seat with hydraulic friendly options.
- I can see where this solution puts the "lock" arm closer to the seat, but if one has to connect a pto anyway, it's not saving any time as you have to get off to connect the PTO or hydraulics anyway.

6. Adapters can accept any brand.
- In the past some quick hitches didn't use standards as well as they could have, but this has got better.

Those were just a few of the what seemed to be two dozen reasons for it. Again, I'm just evaluating myself.

Do you see any specific issues with the 3-point system that need to be resolved?
- The typical issue is simply not having to line up the lift arms exactly, but both this solution and a quick hitch solve that. It seems to me this does the same thing as a quick hitch without much, if any, additional benefit. Again, not trying to be negative, I just don't see an obvious improvement to what already exists other than being different.

 

[motoalliance]

Great feedback....exactly what I was looking for on this! Sound like the QH has resolved any and all needed attachment issues. Have a great weekend.

 

[Sysop]

I don't even like the plain quick hitch setups. I think they are more of a pain to use than a well thought out 3pt, especially on anything with a PTO shaft. I don't think I'd like this for the same reason. In the video it looks like that fella nearly hasta take a shoulder out of socket to contort under the thing to reach the PTO shaft and connect it. I have no issues with a 5 minute implement swap, nobody is paying me by the hour...

 

[mcfarmall]

I have read several historical accounts that if International Harvester had pushed it harder, the Farmall Fast Hitch would have easily eclipsed the Ferguson 3 point hitch. People who have old Farmalls equipped with the Fast Hitch have reported that it's much easier and faster than traditional 3PH AND todays "quick hitch."

Unfortunately, that didn't happen and now it makes any other system less desirable simply because of the sheer numbers of 3PH stuff already out there.

The traditional 3PH is a lousy system but it will never go away.

 

[Sysop]

It honestly seems no better from all I've seen and heard.

That being said, I've never seen a video of anyone who has properly disconnected and connected 3 point implements. All show folk prying and pulling and trying to move heavy stuff by hand, which is a ridiculous misuse of the system.

 

[CMV]

Looked really fast attaching & letting loose of the attachment. That was slick.

What I couldn't tell from the video was how would it handle a bush hog? The finish mower looked like it was just running on it's wheels. How would that one-point attachment hold a bush hog leveled & few inches off the ground? Or if you wanted a horizontal angle on a box or scrape blade - it looked like it wouldn't hold that?

I don't run a tractor all day for a living & if I change what's on the 3pt more than 2x in same day that's a lot. So for someone like me, it would be a lot of expense to make something that isn't all that hard/time-consuming easier. All my 3pt stuff came with an attachment system from the factory. It was included with the sale price, I could not have bought it at a discount choosing to eliminate 3pt hardware. But it looks like I would have to buy the adapter for every implement to use this. So initial purchase, then adapters for what you already have, then more adapters for stuff you buy in the future. And the adapter for the box blade looked a lot different than the one on the finish mower - so I'd need to figure out which adapter I needed for every attachment, then if I buy or borrow something new I can't use it right away because I have to get the right adapter for it as well?

The bar to release the attachment - looked like it worked very easily to let go. Almost too easily....could a branch or something make it accidentally let loose & drop your attachment?

Not trying to be a jerk or poo-poo on it...these are just questions I would need answered if I were looking at buying one, so all your potential customers would probably ask similar ones too.

One benefit I could see to the owner - If all your stuff had the 3pt hardware removed and those adapter plates installed, nobody could borrow your stuff Unless they had one too....

 

[LouNY]

I have read several historical accounts that if International Harvester had pushed it harder, the Farmall Fast Hitch would have easily eclipsed the Ferguson 3 point hitch. People who have old Farmalls equipped with the Fast Hitch have reported that it's much easier and faster than traditional 3PH AND todays "quick hitch."

Unfortunately, that didn't happen and now it makes any other system less desirable simply because of the sheer numbers of 3PH stuff already out there.

The traditional 3PH is a lousy system but it will never go away.

The OP hitch was interesting but to me didn't seem very practical as has been mentioned getting the pto connected could be quite difficult with that setup.

The video with the IH single arm quick hitch was also very misleading, one only the very small Farmalls had the single arm. Also every fast hitch equipped tractor cam with a tool to disconnect with, it was a simple hook with a handle usually clipped next to the seat.

To unhook a person simply backed up lowered the attachment maybe jiggled it back a bit with the tractor, reached down and pulled with the hook to unlatch and drove away, to connect you simple backed into the implement, maybe steered back and forth with a bit of rear push it would latch in and be done,the pto was easy to access.

I also don't care for the conventional quick hitch because of the obstruction getting to the pto. Without a quick hitch I will quite often connect the pto before the toplink.

I prefer the Euro style 3 pt arms with the hooks to the closed eye style.

My opinion only, part of my reasoning is with some age it gets harder to twist and crawl in to reach the pto with lift arms and quick hitches in the way.

 

[Threepoint]

[snip]
That being said, I've never seen a video of anyone who has properly disconnected and connected 3 point implements. All show folk prying and pulling and trying to move heavy stuff by hand, which is a ridiculous misuse of the system.

Sysop, I'm a lifetime learner and would love to see how you're supposed to do it correctly! Why not make that video? :thumbsup:

 

[WranglerX]

I am already invested in quick hitch because that is what all my local dealers have (3 Point Hitch) and have never seen the Lionforge thing, seems to me somebody is trying to reinvent the wheel, but system only is practical IF you already have not investment in quick hitch ... And what if company fails many will be stuck with system the will be useless..... 200 QH manufactures and 3,000,000 3PH attachments can't be wrong... I find it super curious that many implement manufacturers cant even embrace the existing QH let alone a whole different system....

IF I were to enter a market I would direct my efforts to attachments more in line for the ever becoming popular CUT or SCUT.... Instead of people have to play the guessing game of "will this work on my 18HP tractor" ... Need more of sort of a grown up line of of your ATV attachments to fit the CUT and SCUT arena...

Dale

 

[mcfarmall]

It honestly seems no better from all I've seen and heard.

That being said, I've never seen a video of anyone who has properly disconnected and connected 3 point implements. All show folk prying and pulling and trying to move heavy stuff by hand, which is a ridiculous misuse of the system.

The one point Fast Hitch was for the Cub/A tractor...check out the video of the Super C (and others).

Fast Hitch and Go with a Farmall Super C - YouTube

 

[PEJ5]

Interesting. It looks like it would do well pulling an implement. How well would it do pushing a snowblower? What about a 1000# to 2000# ballast. Would it dangle and swing about?

 

[Sysop]

Sysop, I'm a lifetime learner and would love to see how you're supposed to do it correctly! Why not make that video? :thumbsup:

I've honestly considered doing so, quite seriously. Reasons I have not are as follows, but in no sort of order. The biggest reason would be I don't have time to complete all of the things I need to get done. I never have any help, so finding a camera-person is a no go. If I did the video from a tripod, I would need to cut it many times to provide good view angles, to which many viewers would say I spent a lot of off-camera time setting things up to line up easily. The only camera I have is my cell phone. I could use my cell phone and do the attachment one handed, but quality and length of play would likely suffer greatly. My tractor is loud and my property windy, a voice-over would surely be a requirement; I don't have equipment, software, or experience for that.

 

[TheMan419]

A proprietary system is doomed to failure in my opinion. The advantage of the three point hitch is that it is, or nearly, universal. If I buy into your proposed system there is no guarantee in 5 years when I need another implement that you will be in business or have the implement I want.

With my 3 point if manufacturer A goes out of business I can just buy from B.

As for ease of hook up as mentioned there are already several quick hitch options on the market. There is the methodology that Pat's uses and then there are 3 point Quick Hitches. Each have their advantages and are argued on here as fanatically as tractor color.

Your market would almost certainly have to be people buying new tractors. I already have several implements so I am not going to buy into that system and have to mod those implements or worse buy all new ones. Especially since I already have a Quick Hitch.

 

[Diggin It]

Do you see any specific issues with the 3-point system that need to be resolved?

I don't know since I haven't seen it yet. All I've seen are offsite links. I don't do videos so until I see static pictures embedded into this thread I can view without going offsite, I can't comment.

 

[Diggin It]

That being said, I've never seen a video of anyone who has properly disconnected and connected 3 point implements. All show folk prying and pulling and trying to move heavy stuff by hand, which is a ridiculous misuse of the system.

Being so new at it, I'm still trying to figure it out. Middlebuster is no problem. 500+ pound tiller that wants to rotate forward on the tines is an issue. I've rigged up a lifting frame and sling to help. Takes the weight off and balances to make connection easier.

 

[TheMan419]

Being so new at it, I'm still trying to figure it out. Middlebuster is no problem. 500+ pound tiller that wants to rotate forward on the tines is an issue. I've rigged up a lifting frame and sling to help. Takes the weight off and balances to make connection easier.

The tiller was what put me over the edge to get the quick hitch. The brush hog at least has a tail wheel so it it somewhat mobile. Between the immobility of the tiller and my bad back..... no thanks.

With the HF Quick Hitch I can hook the tiller up in under 5 minutes with almost zero physical effort. Most of the time is taken up in readjusting to get backing up to the tiller square and with the quick hitch lined up properly.

Hooking the PTO up not included in my 5 minutes. There is additional time and swear words used there. I see no difference in that particular effort than I do in the effort there was without the quick hitch.

 

[WranglerX]

The only positive is with that proprietary system is it keeps neighbors from borrowing your implements...

Dale