Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer.

patrickg · Jul 22, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Dan, I sure am glad the permethrin is helping. About the math? I thought the recommended mix was greater than 1/2 of a percent. How do you start with 1/2 percent solution and mix it stronger? I suspect your mix is on the weak side. If it is working, think how effective it would be at the correct dose.

I think there is an alternative explanation about the yellowjacket attack. Given that you were zapped in the orange, it seems to be nature's way of protesting your "green machine" and emphatically pointing out the prefered orange!

Patrick (Assume the appropriate liberal sprinkling of emoticons)

dmccarty · Jul 23, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

StoneHeartFarm,

I have heard of the meat tenderizer trick. I think I have used it when I was a kid and got stung. I was wearing white for the most part. A white T shirt and somewhat white pants. Kinda hard to describe the color of the pants with the sawdust, dirt, oil and grease. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Shall we say a Molted White. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Is white supposed to fend off the bees? If so I guess they really could have torn me up much worse. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

We have had a couple of bad bee attacks around here as well. But at least one dog was killed in by a swarm of bees and the owner was bitten prettty bad as well.

Later...
Dan

dmccarty · Jul 23, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

PatrickG,

My math may be incorrect but what I did was increase the use of the .5% solution in the overall mix. The final mix described in the web page was 15 oz of water to 1 oz of the 13.3% solution. I use about 2 oz of of the .5% Permethrin with 14 oz of water. I think my final solution was a bit stronger than than the described mix if my memory and math works! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I only had a single Chemistry class in school so I might be really off the mix.

You have a very good theory about the bees attacking me because of my Green Tractor. But there is a flaw in your hyponthesis. I had the tractor hidden behind some trees and bushes well away from the Gutless, Cowardly YellowJackets. Obviously they were attacking Orange. I'm sure if they knew I had a Green Tractor they never would have attacked me! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Related to the bees and tractors. Lets talk Wasps/Hornets. The afternoon of the YellowJacket attack I was playing bulldozer with the 4700 and noticed a few Wasp/Hornets buzzing around. Not moving fast just moving around. I think I hit their nest in the wood I was cleaning up. I have done this before. After, shall we say, moving the nest the Wasps/Hornets fly around the general area looking for their moved nest. They don't seem to be angry just puzzled. I have seen this before. I left the area and worked somewhere else. Not need to take chances! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I add this as more proof to my theory that The Stinging Flying Bugs don't like Orange. Green they at least tolarate! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Later...
Dan McCarty

StoneHeartFarm · Jul 23, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Dan,

I'm not sure what the white is supposed to do. I just notice that bee keepers are always wearing white outfits. The hives are also white. Perhaps the honey bees think the bee keepers are hives so they don't attack? Perhaps they can't tell the difference between the white suit and the white hive so they can't find the bee keeper? If you were wearing white, I guess it doesn't work for yellow jackets.

If you can find the hive (have it marked for easy location), go soak it down with something like Sevin. It's a night time job though. We always got rid of nests at night. Dad said the bees couldn't find him in the dark. But, this solution may be like Patrickg's answer "42".

SHF

patrickg · Jul 23, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

OK, OK, I'm suing for peace in the color wars. I'm ready to cease hostilities without either side losing or winning. Color is perceived differently by different observers and it is truly impossible to be sure your perception is congruent with someone elses even when you are both sure it is, subjectively. Wors yet with interspecies differences.

Now to MATH a "HARDER" science (not difficult kinda harder but more rigorous and more surity in agreement).

13.5% permethrin contains 0.135 oz of permethrin in an oz of solution.
one oz of 13.5% in 15 oz of water still contains 0.135 oz of permethrin.
So divide 0.135/16 = 0.008437

This is about 0.8437% or 0.008437 oz of permethrin per oz of solution diluted 1:15 (16 oz of solution)

I don't think there is a simple means of starting with 0.5% and diluting it U P to 0.8%

Your trial solution: 2oz of 0.5% in 14oz Is the equivalent of 1 oz of 1% in 15oz of water or 0.0625%

You diluted the 0.5% by a factor of 8 getting 0.5/8 = 0.0625%

There are many potential explanations for your bug reduction results. Here are 4:
1. Placebo effect (Faith healing parallel): you believed so strongly it worked (somehow).
2. The bugs were trying to lull you into a false sense of security to lure you deep into blood sucker territory.
3. There were a lot fewer ticks out and about or they weren't active or hungry or...
4. Even at the whimpy concentration of only .06% (less than one tenth of a percent)
PERMETHRIN THE TICK FIGHTER still helped.

I think more is better till yo get to the full DoD dose. Exceeding that bya lot is like going beyond about 30% deet you get beyond point of diminishing returns A N D it is a waste of $$$$$.

I am still really pleased that it seemed to help (even if you do drive one of them little green and yellow foreign import tractors).

Patrick

kerr · Jul 23, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Get a sting? Slap your "in use"Chew-dip or moist cig. tobacco on the bite.5 seconds later no pain-small stain.HA HA Trust me,ol kerr tells ya its gonna rain ya better build a boat!

looch · Jul 23, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

About wearing white...

I read in an old dirt bike magazine that white attracts ticks. I also heard that wearing black attracts mosquitoes. Mother Nature has a twisted sense of humour./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

JOR_EL · Jul 24, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

<font color=blue>white attracts ticks. I also heard that wearing black attracts mosquitoes.</font color=blue>

Seems like bee-keepers traditionally wear white, ...where does that fit into all this? /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Larry

dmccarty · Jul 24, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

PatrickG,

Your numbers look like what I remember from my numbers. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif BUT, I dropped an all important % sign on the 13.3 Permithrin/H20 solution. I thought I was a bit weak with the solution I had, for more than I thought it turns out, but I wanted to be on the weaker side to start. I also "published" my numbers since I knew someone would correct me if I messed up the numbers! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I had a wifey trying to talk to me about something and a kid yanking at my leg for something else when I was trying to cipher. And I ciphered wrong. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I need help from Jethro! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I think Option 4 is the correct answer. I did my usual work while wearing the treated pants and only found three ticks all day. And one was dead. Lately I have been finding at least three or four in my pant legs when I would get home and take off my boots. During the day I would constantly see ticks moving up my legs. At least two or three an hour. Often on the drive home I would feel one climbing on my neck. So to only have three ticks in 13.5 hours is very unusual. VERY nice but unusual! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The last time I tried the Permithrin I applied it according to the bottle. The bottle is a sprayer and you spray the clothes. Very time consuming and difficult to get a uniform application. Using water as a carrier of the Permithrin and putting the clothes in a ziplock bag to wick the solution is a pretty smart idea which worked real well.

So I think Option 4 is the best answer and I'm sticking with it! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I'll find out more over the next couple of weeks. I have to treat some other work pants.... Hmmm....

I have a Permithrin source that is .05 of the chemical and .95 water. The web site solution is .135 Permithrin. The water is just a carrier which evaporates leaving the Permithrin. So, when I added two ounces of MY solution did I not end up with .1 Permithrin? Did I make this harder than it needs to be?

I guess time will tell. If the TickLessNess continues then its working. If the TickLessNess last for close to a year its working. In theory. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

About ticks being attracted by white I don't think I believe it or at least I'm skeptical. I have seen them climb orange and red cans. Does that mean they are attracted to orange and red? I think they were just trying to climb so they could latch on to lunch. I think with white clothes you can see the little buggers much easer than say with blue jeans. Thus one would see more on white than blue therefore ticks are more attracted to white. I don't by it... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I was taking a break one afternoon on my road while sitting in the shade. I saw a tick making its way to lunch, i.e., me. I watched him for about 15 minutes as he tried to get near me. I would let it get close and them move almost 90 degrees away from the tick. It would rear up on its back legs and its front "legs" would start waving in the air. It looked like it was scenting for me. Eventually he would turn in the right direction and start moving towards lunch. Many times I'll work off the back of the truck and leave it in the road. The ticks have to be fairly evenly distributed in the road. The first part of the day you won't see any ticks. But as I continue to use the back of the truck, working on the chainsaw for 15 minutes or so and then walking back into the woods to work, the ticks get more numerous during the day. By the end of the day you will have lots of ticks hanging around the truck. They have to be sensing Lunch from a distance and then moving in for a feed. I've noticed this numerous times. They are amazing critters.....

Later...
Dan

StoneHeartFarm · Jul 24, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Paul and Jor El

You're probably right about white attracting ticks. The advantage though is that the ticks are easier to see.

SHF

patrickg · Jul 24, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Dan, If you use the 1/2% (0.5%) Permethrin right out of the bottle without further dilution it will be weaker than the DoD strength. I don't think from my extensive reading that I would be particularly concerned at that concentration.

13.5% diluted 15:1 is about 8/10 of a percent.

A good thing about DoD strength is lasting power, about a year of weekly washings. I read that some of the fatigues (BDU, Battle Dress Uniform) supplied to the troops are pretreated from the mfg. In the field, fatigues wouldn't last over a year with weekly washings so that takes care of it for the troops. You and I still get to price shop for Permethrin and bag our own. I do like the one tip I picked up reading about this stuff. Mark the garmet with treatment date so yo know when to retreat. They list times versus Permethrin strengths. I really really don't like ticks and my wife likes them a whole lot less than I do. We'll probably opt always for DoD strength and retreat in no more than 40-50 washings (our "fatigues" don't make it nearly a week). Won'r go a year but...did I mention that we don't likek ticks?

(Wife's cousin got Lyme's disease.)

Patrick

dmccarty · Jul 24, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

PatrickG,

I was going to write the date of the treated clothes. I asked the wifey to do so but I'm not sure she did....

Around here the ticks and chiggers are not a prolbem after the first couple of freezes so I'm usually safe in November. In 2000 we had close to 24 inches of snow which is very unusual for this area. I was talking with someone who was in the woods after the snow and they found a tick on them! /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif We had had lots of cold weather for months prior to the snow storm so you would think they would have all died. Must have fallen off an animal...

I have three work pants and I'll treat all of them so I should get a good year out of them easy. But I'll treat them every year anyway if this continues to work. I'm somewhat scared of Lyme/Rocky Mounted Fever/etc. but everything I have read says the tick has to stay on for 48 hours to catch something. I get them off 12 hours at max. But I don't really trust that 48 hour limit anyway. Just rather not have the ticks on me in the first place.

I'm seriously thinking of chickens for patrol around the house site.... I'll have to keep them in those movable hutches since I have foxes, a family of hawks as well as owls.

Later...
Dan

patrickg · Jul 24, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Date'em Danno (like in 5 oh, bookem Danno), Just borrow the indelible pen your mom used to write your name in your underware before you went to camp. Are chickens really any good at cleaning out the ticks? Is this tested and independently verified? I might become a chicken fancier, I mean in addition to boiled, broiled, roasted, fried, or grilled. Guineas any good at this? They are also good watch birds. Double the utility at same overhead. Movable cages ehh? Sounding better all the time, maybe next year...

48 hr limit etc. Yeah, like the pathogens have a watch. The less time they spend attached the less chance of infection. Better yet if the lil suckers don't get attached to you. Better they suffer separation anxiety than you worry about infection.

My wife thought she saw a fox the other day. It was closer to me but it was just there for a second, she said and then it was gone, I didn't have time to turn to see it. She said it was buff colored so that eliminates the stereotypical red fox. It was the day after I thought I had seen fox tracks in the mud under the new house (ends of foundation not closed in until after plumbing done). I wasn't feeling too positive on my track ID but it did look like fox. Felt better after her sighting. I've seen and heard owls near the shop bld. Plenty of various hawks including red tailed so free range chickens would have to be clever or lucky without protection.

Patrick

dmccarty · Jul 25, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

PatrickG,

I have HEARD/READ that chickens are good at feasting through all sorts of insects. If you keep them in the movable coup you get pest reduction and fertilizer at the same time. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I have been thinking of raising chickens for eggs for quite some time. My cousin who lives in Orlando has a couple of chickens in her back yard. I am suprised its legal for her to keep the layers but she has been doing if for years.

I was listening to Peoples Pharmacy last Saturday morning and they had on a researcher who was talking about a study they just published in JAMA. I think it was JAMA. Anyway, the study was looking into the effect of Omega 3,6,a,b,c,x,y,z vitamins/nutrients. Apparently one of the Omegas, I think it was 6, seems to lead to artery problems if it is found in higher levels in food compared with the other Omegas. If you are asking what does this have to do with chickens and our subject of ticks and chiggers? Well hold on I'm getting there! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

What the study found was that the factory raised chickens that are fed grain have high levels of the "bad" Omegas. Chickens that had a diet of bugs and grass, i.e., the chickens diet for thousands of years the Omegas were balanced. Having a food product where the Omegas are balanced does not cause artery problems. Apparently this was true of cattle and pigs that were raised primarily on grain. Feeding of grain to chickens, pigs, cattle, etc., is a modern practice. In the past the animals fed on different food products which allowed the Omegas to be balanced. Eggs from chickens that were NOT primarily fed grain had the "correct" balance and eating the eggs in large numbers did not cause health problems.

What she was saying made sense to me. I just found the book on Amazon.com. Looks like the show I heard was a rerun since the book was from 1998. "The Omega Diet: The Lifesaving Nutritional Program Based on the Diet of the Island of Crete" by Artemis P. Simopoulos, Jo Robinson. I just ordered the book.

I surely don't know if all of this is true but it makes some sense. I guess I'll read up on the subject. If it looks good we might be one more step towards chickens.... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I would raise I cattle for our own consumption but I know the wifey will name the calf(s) and there will be now way it/they would go to the butcher. Just would not happened. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Eating eggs I can get away with! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Got to watch them foxes though. We have had two rabid fox's bite people in the last couple of months. One guy was actually on a golf course when he was bitten. The other guy was bitten by the same fox TWICE over two days.

Later....
Dan

patrickg · Jul 25, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Dan, Thanks for the info. What a hoot, turn ticks and chiggers into palatable health food. There is a lot of more similar data out there, Dan. Read about micronutrients in the soil. Just because food grows in your soil doesn't make it have all the stuff it or you may need. Much agricultural acreages are "propped up" with chemical fertilizers that fall way short of providing all the micro nutrients needed and so beneficial. Ever hear of glacial flour? The milky looking stuff in Alaskan rivers from glacial melt. It is the extremely finely divided (super ground up) rocks from glacial action. If yio could get that stuff to spread on your property yoiu would have minerals aplenty. Rocks being fairly difficult to disolve in water, it helps to increase the surface area of the rock. Micro-pulverizing as in glacial action does nicely. I just don't know an economical way to get a lot of it down to this part of the lower 48. Studies have shown tremendous health benefits. It is like the difference between eating really nice photos of vegies versus eating really nutricious vegies.

Patrick

StoneHeartFarm · Jul 26, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Patrickg

I read an article about something similar to your glacial melt. Seems to me they called it "rock dust" and said it is sold in bags by mail order and if I recall right, at some feed and grains.

Our soil here is all either sand or clay. Over the years I've noticed the farm land that has remained as farm land has a lot of clay and usually is chock full of rocks from fist size to basketball size. Somehow, the rocks are almost always associated with the better growing ground. Some kind of natural leaching action?

SHF

patrickg · Jul 26, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

SHF, Maybe where there are big rocks there are littler ones and so on ad infinitum to get the dust size required to have enough surface area to do the deed. Just big rocks alone wouldn't be very beneficial. Think about trying to sweeten a pitcher of iced tea with one big chunk of crystalized sugar. Small surface area compared to a cup of granulated sugar. Would take hours of stiring to get the effect with the big lump. Of course rocks are considerably harder to disolve needing a much larger surface area to do it at an appreciable rate, even with disolved CO2 in the water (CO2 is AKA carbonic acid gas).

With periodic flooding (consider the Nile) renewed supplies of nutrients are repetitively delivered. Glacial flour in the soil of places like Talkeetna (sp?) Alaska contribute to the nutricious qualities of their vegetables. They not only grow big (I have pix of 68lb cabbage and zuchinni bigger than baseball bats) but they assey very well micronutrient wise. Typical supermarket produce from the Imperial Valley (Imperial county east of San Diego) is shipped nationwide to supermarkets and it looks real fine but has nutrition intermediate to really good stuff and a color picture of really good stuff.

To digress and wander farther afield: There are strong links between lack of micronutrients and animal disease (human disease too but that opens a different can of worms). So I say again, wouldn't it be loverly if there were an economical means of procuring large quantities of glacial flour at low costs. Some places get it deliveered for free via rivers. The rest of us would have to pay.

Patrick

StoneHeartFarm · Jul 26, 2001

Re: Tick, chigger, mosquito... Ahh summer. REVENGE

Patrickg

You may be right. The appearance of the larger rocks usually coincides with gravel deposits nearby. Some of the older farms with really good ground have rock piles big enough to build several barns.

SHF