Time for solar-pumped water

[patrick_g]

SoundGuy got it right! I have done several solar installations and subscribed for years to "Home Power" magazine. I never saw a single solar power project in all those years that was driven by economics if one of these criteria were met:

1. Grid power available without tremendously expensive lines to be run.

2. Fuel available to operate a generator.

Most solar projects can not come close to competing with the grid or a backup generator except in the GREEN feel good arena and that is often illusory at best. Solar panels are very energy intensive to make and only recently are they getting good enough to pay back their energy costs with any realistic ROI.

In some remote areas were fuel is not available or if you are hundreds of thousands of dollars away from the nearest grid connection then it can be a good deal (by comparison) but that implies you have to live that remote or life isn't worth living.

Oh, by the way... I am a proponent of solar power, where it makes sense. I am eagerly awaiting millions of homes with solar panels for roofing material. My choice for recreational property was a solar only development where you had to sign a contract to never band together to try to change the rules of being solar only. Still I think you need a generator, preferably powered by propane as there is no fuel storage degradation problem.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

As soundguy says the inverter would not be 100% efficient, and typically I would have to parallel two inverters ($$$) to get 240VAC. Plus the typical AC well pump is not very efficient, either. Fortunately my new high-efficiency whiz-bang pump will run on 48VDC or 240VAC or anything else remotely close, and I am counting on AC grid power for backup. Because while having running water when everyone else in the neighborhood doesn't would be very cool, being without it while everyone else has it would be downright embarrassing.

Paralleling an inverter would only double amp/wattage capacity ( in theory, if you could gen lock the output wave.. ) it would not double the voltage.

soundguy

 

[RonMar]

Grundfos also makes 120V pumps...

 

[patrick_g]

There are 240 VAC inverters for 12, 24, and 48 volt DC input.

I have a pair of 120 VAC Grundfos pumps on my Geothermal system, one pushing and one pulling to/from the 5 each 200 ft deep bores in series (well over 2000 ft of tubing.) One had to be replaced under warranty but in general they make good stuff.

Pat

 

[chatcher]

...I never saw a single solar power project in all those years that was driven by economics...

...Most solar projects can not come close to competing with the grid or a backup generator except in the GREEN feel good arena...

I agree solar power (PV) is not currently cost-effective when compared with other alternatives. The key word there is currently. The economics of fossil fuels are constantly changing so who knows how this will play out in the future. But whether or not things change in the future, I want a simple means of providing running water to my home during a power outage. Economics was not my main concern. I really did not want to run a generator, and for me the value of the solar power choice is that I don't have to. I agree generators can be useful, viable alternatives for anyone who wants to run one.

Paralleling an inverter would only double amp/wattage capacity ( in theory, if you could gen lock the output wave.. ) it would not double the voltage.

soundguy

There are 240 VAC inverters for 12, 24, and 48 volt DC input.

Parallel may be a misleading term - I was referring to the typical 240-vac solar inverter installations built by manufacturers like Outback and Xantrex, which pair synchronized 120VAC inverters to emulate or tie into common 240VAC US grid power. The point is 240AC inverter installations typically cost more than 120VAC, and going that route just to be able to run a cheap, inefficient, split-phase centrifugal pump when an efficient DC permanent magnet helical rotor pump is available would not improve the economics at all - requiring more panel and more battery capacity to make up for all the inefficiencies. Not to mention I have not seen a 240VAC inverter capable of running a common well pump that costs any less than my DC pump.

Grundfos also makes 120V pumps...

I have a pair of 120 VAC Grundfos pumps on my Geothermal system, one pushing and one pulling to/from the 5 each 200 ft deep bores in series (well over 2000 ft of tubing.) One had to be replaced under warranty but in general they make good stuff.

Grundfos makes just about every kind of pump you can imagine. I had a pair of those circulating pumps on a geothermal system at my last house. The only reason they were able to circulate water from a 200 ft deep well is that it was a closed loop and as much water went into each well as came out. You could not use the same pump to lift water more than 25 ft or so in an open loop system like the typical drinking water well. There you are pretty much limited to either a submersible pump or a jet pump unless you have a very shallow well.

 

[Bill Barrett]

Not green but 200KW
Toshiba Builds 100x Smaller Micro Nuclear Reactor

 

[tommu56]

chatcher

I hava a small solar set up at my cabin

2 mitsi 125 watt pannels (plan on adding 2 more this year)
8 trojan L16 batteries in series parralle to 12 volts
outback charge controller
outback invertor

Grundfous sq flex has yet to be installed in a 450' deep well and about 200' more of wire so I opted to run the pump on 120v ac off the invertor pumping to cistern and another pump in it to presureize system.
that way it can pump while we arent there to fill cistern, well only has 1/2 gallon miniut recovery so the groundfos witht the low water cut off was the only choice.

I think Stumpfield has the same pump up and running off his generator.

tom

 

[patrick_g]

Not green but 200KW
Toshiba Builds 100x Smaller Micro Nuclear Reactor

Cool... I had to click the link to assure myself it wasn't a humorous hoax.

Back in the late 60's and early 70's we used radioisotope thermal generators as long term power supplies on oceanographic experiments on the sea floor. Simple thermoelectric units with the heat supplied by radioactive source. Not sure what the flux density was (if any) outside the canister or if there are any three eyed flounder hatched near any of the experiments. Photocells were not too viable but our buoy mounted wind generators did really well (except for shedding a prop or two when overspeeding) till inundated by a large wave in a storm and we gave up on wind. Frequent trips out in a small boat to change lead acid batteries motivated us to try other means of supplying power.

Pat

 

[Defective]

Not green but 200KW
Toshiba Builds 100x Smaller Micro Nuclear Reactor

Dang!

I'd love one...

But how would I go about getting permits & fuel?

 

[chatcher]

Not green but 200KW
Toshiba Builds 100x Smaller Micro Nuclear Reactor

Now that's a generator! I'm pretty sure I can't afford one, but I'll keep checking for one on eBay...

The gov used to have a small nuclear power plant in Antarctica but I think they removed it...

chatcher

I hava a small solar set up at my cabin

2 mitsi 125 watt pannels (plan on adding 2 more this year)
8 trojan L16 batteries in series parralle to 12 volts
outback charge controller
outback invertor

Grundfous sq flex has yet to be installed in a 450' deep well and about 200' more of wire so I opted to run the pump on 120v ac off the invertor pumping to cistern and another pump in it to presureize system.
that way it can pump while we arent there to fill cistern, well only has 1/2 gallon miniut recovery so the groundfos witht the low water cut off was the only choice.

I think Stumpfield has the same pump up and running off his generator.

tom

One of the things I like about the SQ Flex pumps is the wide range of input power they will run on. In your case you're using 120VAC inverted from 12VDC. In my case I'll be using 48VDC with 240AC grid power for backup. Since I don't know yet where this will lead, maybe more panels and a grid-tied inverter system, having multiple options for how to connect it all together is appealing to me.