To voucher or not to voucher?

[Wingnut]

Tim,

I have never seen ANY proof of a correlation between spending more money (in education) and getting more quality. We seem to have this idea in the US that we can solve the education problems with more and more money ... and the result is highly paid "educators" and schools that are following down - because salaries and benefits were deemed more important than maintenance. Now the school districts or school borads come begging for more taxes to fix the schools.

Maybe your school district was entirely unique .... but I sort of doubt it. Of course, maybe my doubt comes from the strikes in Canada every year and hearing the teachers state that it was being done "for the children". Hmmmmm ... maybe that's why I despise Ms. "It Takes A Village" ... wonder if she had any Canadian teachers for advisors ....

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Well Tim, I'm glad you can gaze into your crystal ball, and know what I see and what I do.
FACT- I am in the public schools in my district on a regular basis, as a contractor, and I see exactly what is happening, and it sure ain't teaching. Babysitting in a climate of controlled chaos would come closer to a short description.
I'm also the SOB who had his stepson carry a tape recorder into his classes, so his mother and I could understand exactly what the problems were. Save your typing fingers, NY is a 1 party concent state on recording. When we sat in the principals office and listened to the lying NEA teacher's representation, the boy was at fault, and it stayed that way till the tape was played. There was absolutely nothing remotely near to teaching going on in either his English or Math classes.
Pissed off teachers, you bet. Enlightened principal, absolutely.
Changes instituted, [censored] right.
I also happen to encounter the outproduct of the government education system on a daily basis, and the job isn't getting done. Teachers take the front line when it comes to the blame cause teachers have the maximum direct contact with the students.
Dollars spent versus quality of education product, BULLSNOTT!
If dollars per student were relevant, Washington DC would graduate the brightest kids in the US, and we all know that doesn't happen.
I've watched the teachers unions over the last 30+ years, and what they have accomplished is phenominal. they've destroyed US public schools. Teachers unions are excuse machines, and job protectors for tenured teachers, to the extent the Union defends a convicted child mollestor, as long as he pays dues. If the Clan did to public education what the Teachers unions have accomplished, there would eb richeous outrage, but the teachers unions have propogandized very well, and screwed the students.
Evaluation Teams- does anyone really think classes aren't conducted differently when an evaluator is sitting in the room? If teachers are doing such afantastic job, why was one of the first items unions demanded the disconnection of the function of school PA systems to eliminate the covert listening by supervisors?
NEA and union teachers have done a fantastic job, of feathering their nest, and dumbinbg down America, actually, I should say the US, because Canadian Schools manage to turn out a superior product, bilingual to begin with.
Lets also remember some of us outside the union teacher system know all those doctorates of education are phoney as a $3bill or diploma from Columbia Paciffica.
I also happen to have a copy of the current teacher's contract for my district, and know the content. Just how does any union justify $56- per hour for lead chaperone and $27- an hour for assistant chaperones?
Public schools have neither geneticly superior or inferior students to work with than competing private schools. Private schools do not have a greater number of invloved parent hours either, what they do have is people who want to teach.
I have 2 buddys who just retired from teaching in Vo-Tec and both retired because they are fed up. They'd also both teach for free if they got 10 students who wanted to learn, rather than the useless creatures the public schools wanted to dump to VoTec.
I've been around a while, and saw what the unions did, step by step, in tiny little increments. The quality of instruction in US Public Schools stinks. How does any "teacher" explain a class of high school juniors who can't read a ruler? Kindly explain how you justify diagraming a sentance now being Sr English work when 40 years ago it was 6th grade work?
Public schools are turning out a crap product, and the decline has occurred right in step with the increased power of NEA and union teachers.
Unions are not for skilled professionals, Unions are for unskilled workers with no bargaining power. There is no way on earth teachers were forced to unionize by any Board of Ed, Boards have virtually no power any more, thanks to state laws passed by legislatures bought and paid for by NEA and Union "Teachers".
When you use NEA lines to defend the current crop of "Teachers", you expose yourself as what you really are, an unskilled worker promoting propoganda, not a professional.

 

[Chuck52]

Franz and Wngnut,

I don't dispute your experiences with the education system, and it really didn't seem as if Tim did either. However, I can say that my three children came through the local public education system, and I did not hear from them or from any other families about systemic problems such as you describe happening here. All my children can read, write, and do the math I expect of them. Most of the university students I interact with don't seem too poorly prepared for college-level work, though it does sometimes seem to me that the English language is suffering a decline. I don't know if that's the school system or TV and music at work. Now, just to the west of my small piece of the world, the Kansas City public school system has established some kind of record for problems. And that school system is a shining example of how more money does not equate to better education. However, I expect what Tim meant about getting what you pay for was more along the lines of a Ford versus a Yugo. There are some small school districts around here that have trouble stocking their libraries. Private schools are expensive for a reason.

Chuck

 

[knucklehead]

The only statistically valid conclusion that can be drawn between money and quality in the public school system is that increased funding produces worse results. I'd like to see how much a private school education costs in real dollars, compared to what the school system costs. For one thing, I don't see private schools crying for new buildings with increasing frequency. Must be some real dumps, them private schools, huh? Or do we just wear out the public ones faster with so much learnin'? /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Regarding vouchers, I am concerned that the ever lengthening arm of government control may over time turn the new recipients into what we contend with today: institutions evolved into prostitutes, reconfigured bureacracies who have abandoned education for the pursuit of the buck.

I am at the same time saddened and encouraged as I read about parents' struggle with the public school. It documents the decline of the American education system. However, if more parents challenged foolishness, there would be a lot of change. The problem is a lack of commitment and accountability, not money or time. The union is a real and large facet of the problem. Teaching is simple, despite claims to the contrary. It requires patience and love, and a willingness to learn on the part of the teacher. It is not a skill aquired by degree; it is a gift, having a heart for other hearts. This illuminates both the problem and the solution, in my opinion.

 

[knucklehead]

Uh, clarification:

<font color=blue>The problem is a lack of commitment and accountability, not money or time</font color=blue>, refers to the school system, not parents (although it could), in the above post. Sounds like I'm slamming parents if you read it literally - not intended!

/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[TimSullivan]

Wingnut,

There are plenty of studies on the effect of class size. What is interesting is that most show exactly what the group that paid for the study has professed for years.

The class size issue is not simple and has to be looked at with common sense. I once taught a seventh grade math class with 42 students. A regular room was too small so we were all moved into a chorus room. The parents were mad and I was frustrated. I was tired of hearing about it and told the students that this was the hand we were dealt and it could be a lot worse. I started to joke about the desks on the risers and the nosebleed row in the back. The class settled down and we had a very good year. So is forty-two too many for a math class? May be not in those circumstances but it sure is not the best situation either.

Now how about that same number in an Industrial Arts or Science class with a lab. Then what about an English teacher who is trying to have their students write as much as possible? Should they have fewer students so that the writing can be corrected and returned in a timely manner? The Board of Education would never listen to the differentiation of class size by curriculum area. Of course some of the teachers did not want it either.

In our contract that I helped negotiate in the mid-seventies, the class size language limited a teacher to a total of 150 students in five classes. My friends in Phys. Ed. had the same limit as the English teacher. We are so much better enlightened now that as far as I know that language is still in the new contract. Is education in trouble in the US? Only as much as our society allows it to be. The urban schools are a disaster and rhetoric will not solve the problems nor will just throwing money at a community in trouble.

About seven years ago I was fortunate enough to have been invited to tour two Canadian secondary schools. The recognition that those schools are not just a preparation for a college education was obvious. The vocational training areas were wonderful and students in them where proud to be there. These trades areas have been driven out of the secondary schools in New York State. They are now house at regional centers and have developed the reputation of a school for those who have not been successful in the regular classroom. I hope that is politically correct enough.

The school my son attended is blessed with a very large tax base and a population that has great pride in its schools. You are correct that at this time it is quite unique.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

On the subject of class size I'd like to offer the following. I attended a parochial gradeschool for eight years and parochial HS for four more. In first grade we had three classrooms of first graders with one teacher and no assistant in each. I was in the mid-size room. I was one of sixty-three first graders in that room. Another had sixty-four while the third had only sixty-one.

Remember, this was a "private" school. The bottom line is we all learned and moved on. If someone didn't learn, the teacher would spend extra time with them after school. Not a perfect system, but it worked. I don't ever recall having a particularly small classroom environment even in HS. The average number of students in a classroom there at that time was probably in the thirties or forties. I think the smallest class I ever saw there was third year Latin, and I was one of twenty-some in that class.

This was a "college prep" school by today's standards. No wood shop. No metal shop. Just the academic classes. Our SAT's reflected that. Most in my class did, in fact, go on to college. I only know of three who didn't.

One owns a commercial cleaning business operating in four or five cities now. Another is an incredibly successful high end custom home builder here (I can only dream of being a customer of his). A third retired a few years ago from the business he founded and now is a principle of a new bank here. By the way, he had to repeat sixth grade. He only became my classmate after that.

That was my first experience with a "split class." We had one teacher teaching two grades in the same room. She spent literally half her time teaching each. When she was teaching one grade the other would be working on some assignment. Then it would reverse. It certainly taught you how to shut out distractions while you read or studied

We only had twenty some of each grade so the total class size was probably around fifty total. Somehow, I don't think it hurt him too badly. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif In point of fact, I had lunch with him last week and we were talking about the fact we each thought that was our best year of school ever and what a great teacher we had. Ironically, it was her first year teaching. She was actually a parent of another classmate. She had a degree and agreed to fill in when another teacher bailed at the last minute and took a higher paying teaching position at a public school.

All of this and yet, by today's standards we would be considered to be terribly disadvantaged by such a situation. The one thing I think we had that compensated for all of these "disadvantages" was discipline. No one crossed or mouthed of to a teacher. If you did there was hell to pay and everyone knew it. Maybe that's the difference.

 

[TimSullivan]

I could not agree more.

My education was just about the same with parochial elementary and a Jesuit high school. I would guess most of my elementary classes were above fifty students but the nuns had control and did a good job. If not, a call home would straighten things out in a hurry. My family was blue collar Irish and education was very important to them. Therefore it was very important to my generation of the family too if you wanted to stay health.

 

[micromike]

I went to a parochial school for first, second and third grade. 62 Children in first, 64 in second, 64 in third. By third grade, Mikey COULDN'T READ! Wonder why? Mikey had to repeat third grade. A HORRIBLE thing to do for a child's self esteem. I was put in a public school with 22 students in the classroom and given a reading tutor. Caught up in no time. Mikey now has two Masters Degree, owns his own bussiness.

I shutter to think what would have happened if Mikey would have been left in the parochial school!

Our public schools in Maryland are OUTSTANDING! The vast majority of the teachers are true professionals. Many have masters degrees and are committed to educating children.

In our system children with learning problems are identified very early and tested to identify specific areas that may need remedial help. They are re-tested regularly and by golly, most show significant improvement after intervention.

I do not work in the school system but I do work in a closely related field. My problem with parochial schools, private schools and home schooling today is that in the past fifteen years I have NEVER seen ONE referral for testing from ANY of them for a child with learning problems. NOT ONE! Yet our public school has two full time PHD level psychologists that do nothing but test children and develop individualized education plans for each and every one of those children with problems, behavioral or learning.

Those children are typically identified early and receive specialized services, (often for only one or two years until they catch up) have a HUGE advantage over those who may never be identified and helped.

Teacher Education programs in colleges today are vastly superior to even 20 years ago. Our public education system REQUIORS teachers to have a degree in education and be certified in specific areas before they ever enter a classroom. They also offer countless hours of continuing education programs for the teachers every year. Two of our local highschool teachers even have doctorates in education.

Does all this qaurantee your child will be well educated in the public school system? Of course not. But considering our local parochial school doesn't even require a teaching certificate to teach grades 1 through 6, well.... consider the odds!

Mike

 

[Wingnut]

not to play "I can top that ..." gary, but I have a fond memory of 2 years in a country school where grades 1 through 6 were in the same room. 1 teacher. Who came in early to start the furnace in the winter. Somehow I managed to get an education that has never, to this day, stopped.
Definitely a poor tax base.
Sometimes walked the 5 miles to school for fun. Sometimes even beat the bus that picked up kids from MANY miles around.
A good school. Gave me a real thirst for knowledge.