To voucher or not to voucher?

Wingnut · Aug 31, 2002

hmmm ... sounds like a real good living for psychologists.

Tell mw, aren't psychologists the reason why so may kids are being severely medicated these days?

Good for psychologists and drug companies. I'm not so sure about society, though.

Gary_in_Indiana · Sep 1, 2002

Mike,

Your experience could be the exception that proves the rule or it could be that Maryland's public education is just as outstanding as you say and you had a very bad experience in grades 1-3 in parochial school. In any event, I'm glad it worked out for you. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Neither system is perfect. My only points were that large class size doesn't always mean poor results, that parochial schools don't always mean mean smaller classes and that discipline is essential to a quality learning environment.

Flint · Sep 1, 2002

I bet some of you knew I would have an opinion on this.

On just the voucher thumbs up or down, as I understand most voucher systems in use today, I'd say thumbs down. I can explain why while responding to some previous posts.

Fred:
3) Discipline could be instituted. Schools could have the choice of not putting up with students that cause problems.

This would make vouchers a much more equitable solution if it were true. As far as I know, no current voucher system allows a public school to say adios to any student. Obviously students can be suspended and expelled for major discipline issues, (as a former administrator Tim probably knows much more about this than I) but I believe the school district must then find and pay for the alternate schooling. (We had a girl last year who repeatedly attacked other students and had a mouth which would make a drill sergeant blush. We finally got her parents to agree that she needed to be in an laternate environment. That school costs a lot more than keeping her in our school and the district - that means taxpayers are paying for it. A private school could simply say goodbye.) Most states have laws which say any child is entitled to a free education up to a certain age. This means from your "average" Billy and Sally to your severely emotionally and physically challenged students. If vouchers are provided to private schools they should also be required to follow these same rules, unfortunately many of these schools pick and choose their students. I have talked to a couple of assistant school superintendents who say they would even be more open to vouchers if it meant they could hand some parents a voucher check and say, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." But this just isn't the case. A private school can't be required to take any child, a public one is. (For the record, those school officials are referring to those parents of kids who are chronically abusive to other kids and adults not the kid with Down's Syndrome.)

Spencer:
" . . . without vouchers if I send my daughter to private school that not only would I have to pay for her education but I would also be paying to send his kids to public school.

and

gws:
I am paying X dollars for schools, Why cant I take the money and use it as I best see fit. If I want to use X and add more to it to get into private school, I think I should be able to.

To Spencer, yes, just like those who have no kids pay for others. An educated public is one of those public goods which everyone benefits from and has an interest in perpetuating. Using the argument that if one doesn't have kids in the public school they are not receiving its benefits and/or shouldn't have to pay for them is a very slippery slope indeed. (To both Spencer and gws

For example, if my wife refuses to drive on the freeway (why? don't ask!!!) does this mean she should be allowed to say, "I want that portion of my tax $ to be used for city streets only", or a dedicated walker could say "no roads, just sidewalks", or could someone say, "I'll protect my family, home and property myself. Give me my tax $ that go for police, fire, and national defense. I'll spend it the way I want." Once something is put in the public domain it must stay wholly there or be completely removed. Chaos would ensue if individuals were allowed to opt out as and when they wanted. Maybe those in favor of vouchers would be on firmer ground if they just advocated the erradication of public education. Then they could take their $ and use it how they want. Needless to say I think this would be a tragic mistake, but I'll bet some of you would agree with it.

To Cowboydoc:
The situation you described with your daughter's math woes is ridiculous. If your school's teachers and admins treated you and your daughter as you said, I have nothing but sympathy for you. That kind of rigidity and intolerance for the individual learner is not acceptable. I wouldn't blame you for pulling her out. A good teacher should modify his/her instruction for individual learning styles and be open to suggestions as to how to improve their teaching. As a teacher, I'm saddened to hear about your experience.

Cowboydoc:
"The current school systems are a joke for the most part. Teachers, admin., etc. have no reason at all to do a better job the way that it is.

Yes, we do! The reason is that we love our job and we WANT to do better. Not everything and everyone has to be extrinsically motivated.

Mark in ME (Hey, Mark!)
"The problem is a lack of commitment and accountability, not money or time, refers to the school system, not parents (although it could)"

I would reverse that. I have taught for 12 years public and private and come in contact with hundreds of teachers. I can count maybe two who lacked commitment. And I think they should have been fired! (One was, the other retired.) I can honestly say the rest truly cared for and loved their students. Many went out of their way to fullfill not only a student's educational needs, but physical and emotional as well. My experience has been most unsuccessful students are that way because they and/or their parents just don't care. This doesn't mean that the parent doesn't say they care and say they try, they just don't follow through with actions. I've had many an underperforming student who does zero work. When I attempt to bring in parents or the parent contacts me I set up a plan to help. One common tool we use is an agenda. The kid writes down work to be completed at home and I sign it so the parent can say, "Let me see your agenda," and little Billy can't say, "No work tonight mom!" Nine times out of ten the kid does not improve and begin turning in work because the parent never follows through at home. Now, I want to say that when a student reaches a certain age they themselves must make the decision to learn. IF they just refuse to participate in the learning process (and this participation I think is by far more critical than the parent or teacher) they will not be successful. A student who is committed to learning can overcome a poor teacher and/or a poor parent, the reverse, a committed teacher and parent together, often cannot overcome an unwilling learner.

I'll stop quoting others and in an effort to be brief (I know, too late) just rant a little.

I've taught in both private and public schools. In my opinion the three most important factors in making a successful student and thus a successful school are:

1. parental involvement/home attitude toward education - When kids know school is important and is valued in the home they respond positively. When they know their parents could care less, they usually follow suit.

2. parental involvement/home attitude toward education - When kids know school is important and is valued in the home they respond positively. When they know their parents could care less, they usually follow suit.

3. class size- The fewer students per instructor, the more individual attention each student gets.

The first two are far and away the most important. The amount of money spent, rural vs urban, technology or chalk and slates, etc. are little next to a personal commitment to the value of education.

The private school I taught in was excellent. The kids who left were on average two grade levels above their public school counterparts. Why? Their parents were paying about $350 per month and those kids knew they had better take school seriously. Any parent who is willing to spend that kind of money also sets a tone at home which values education. They probably don't say, "This is costing me, so you better perform!", rather it is just understood - school is important. These parents read with their kids, sat down and worked on projects together, and discussed everything under the sun. The second reason was we had a 10 to 1 student to teacher ratio. This meant lots of one-on-one time for each student. It also meant when one kid was rude or bullying another, it was unlikely to happen outside of earshot of an adult. Our director made it clear that our job was to never let something like this go by without intervening. Unfortunately, in a large public school when this happens the teacher is often unaware because of the sheer numbers of kids. And, even sadder is that some adults, parents and teachers, find that the easiest thing to do is pretend they didn't hear it.

Despite how good this school was it didn't, in my opinion, deserve public money for these reasons: it had zero physically and mentally challenged students and did not have the facilities to accommodate them; it had no gym; no cafeteria; no library; no nurse; no buses; no band; when it encounterd students who were too unruly and violent, they were politely asked to leave. No public school could get away with this. This school had a long waiting list so it could pick and choose who it educated. ( To be fair, the director, the best teacher I have ever encountered, did everything she could to avoid asking a student to leave, but none the less this is an option no public school has.)

These two reasons, I believe, also explain why home schooling is also often very successful. Obviously the parents are involved and they have extremely low student to teacher ratios.

I think that a lot of the criticism people heap on the schools are for things schools have little or no control over. They are mandated by government policies which in turn are brought into being because an individual sued the school district. Some of these changes and regulations are for the better, some are not.

I have a great deal more to say on this topic, but it's time to eat!!! So, I 'll close by saying as I have on another thread and much as Tim did above by saying: If you are concerned and fearful about what is taught in your school, go down and visit. Better yet, become a teacher!!!! Be the change you desire. Parts of this country are in dire need of teachers, which seems to belie the idea some have implied that teachers get boatloads of money for no work. Give it try if you think it nothing but honey and sunshine or you think it is rotten to the core. And I say this, as I have before, not because I am a whining teacher. I hate those teachers as much as anyone. I love my job and I can't believe I get paid to do it. I say it because I know you will find that 99% of educators are honest, hard-working people just like you. They are doing the best they can and believe it or not they love your kids! The other 1% should be fired!!!

Thanks and have a happy, healthy and peaceful future,

Dan

knucklehead · Sep 1, 2002

Right on target with parental responsibility, Dan!

I agree with the "check it for yourself" logic as sound, but I can draw pretty decent conclusions from seeing what comes out the system, too. Maybe that's more of a condemnation of parents, whether it's because we raise nasty kids, or don't pay enough attention to what is going on in schools. I try to be polite when others say they don't think they can teach; but it is a natural thing to do; it is an extension of the excitement of learning - and passing that along. How many have taken the role of teaching when sharing tractor information with others on this board? Nearly all of us!

Let's all get more excited about learning; we need to be more vigilant and involved as parents.

Gary_in_Indiana · Sep 1, 2002

"Right on target with parental responsibility... we need to be more vigilant and involved as parents"

Mark, I said something very similar to a local teacher who brought up something I often forget or choose to ignore. She told me that the vast majority of the students in her school come from one or zero parent homes. By "zero parent" I mean homes where neither parent are present and a grandparent or someone else is the primary care-giver. Granted, this is more of an urban problem now than a suburban or rural problem, but how many suburban and rural problems of today were restricted to urban areas a generation or two ago?

The situation has gotten so bad that the schools are not only providing lunch and, in recent years, breakfast as well but now they are looking at providing dinner also if students choose to stay that long. When I first heard this my reaction was that schools should be in the education business and not the restaurant business. I cringed when it was pointed out to me that without this many of these kids wouldn't get a meal on a lot of days.

I don't have any answers here. I just wanted to point out something I hadn't considered until about a week ago. In a world with every child having two parents in a good situation it would be easy to put responsibility on them. It's a lot tougher in the real world where many times they either aren't there or shouldn't be.

knucklehead · Sep 1, 2002

Yeah, I know, Gary. It breaks my heart to see what parents do to their kids. Some parents get left in a bad situation, I realize. But let's back up a generation, and look at how things got that way - a perfectly good family that simply didn't teach little Johnny or Susie how to be responsible, or how to pick a good spouse, at the very least. Daddy was too busy working, or Mom, too, to be there for them. Such a simple thing to add a word of wisdom here and there, instead of collapsing in front of the tube with a Bud. Not a bad upbringing. Not a bad Dad or Mom, either....just not enough thinking ahead.

I guess the only response I have is for good people (family first) in the community to get involved and help their own. And the other response, harsh as it may seem, is not to "enable" the problem by providing increasing aid to irresponsible people, without requiring responsible behavior. Talk about a whole 'nuther thread!

Teachers are the last stop and sometimes a real turning point for kids. That's why I hold them to such high standards. And why I think we should have the Ten Commamdments posted conspicuously in our institutions, educational and otherwise. There's stats out there that show an increased downward slide in several key areas such as out of wedlock births since we asked God to hit the bricks as a nation. Talk about yet another topic. Hard to avoid when we talk about social problems.

TimSullivan · Sep 1, 2002

Obviously students can be suspended and expelled for major discipline issues, (as a former administrator Tim probably knows much more about this than I) but I believe the school district must then find and pay for the alternate schooling

Hi Dan,

In New York the home district must pay for the schooling right up to residential treatment in some cases. That can be five or more times the regular per student cost.

A student who is committed to learning can overcome a poor teacher and/or a poor parent, the reverse, a committed teacher and parent together, often cannot overcome an unwilling learner.

That is so true and at the same time the most frustrating for an educator and parent.

Dan do not lose your fire for teaching. It burns so strong in some that they can effect students in so many ways. I watched a young teacher in a summer program find success with a student that was not previously interested in his own education. After the program was over and the student had earned a high grade on the final, I talked with him about his new success. He told me he liked the teacher and he felt that it was important to her that he do well. It was so important to her that he thought for the first time it was worth working on the assignments. What he found was it felt really good to look at his excellent grades. I made sure that he had the best teachers I could schedule the next year and he made the honor roll all four quarters. The next year he had a mix of good and better teachers and he repeated four quarters on the honor roll.

micromike · Sep 1, 2002

Wingnut

A point of clairification...

"Tell mw, aren't psychologists the reason why so may kids are being severely medicated these days?"

"Good for psychologists and drug companies. I'm not so sure about society, though."

Psychologists can not prescribe medication. Only a MD can prescribe meds. And, while a psychologist may recommend medication, the decision is made by the parent and the child's physician. I agree some children are overmedicated, often to manage behavior problems which is sometimes unfortunate and other times a life saver. It's a difficult call, but I believe the advances in medications for children, far exceed the problems it has caused in society overall.

Gary

Thank you for your comments. I agree neither system is perfect. I believe home life really plays the critical role and discipline is key too. Many good posts on this!

Flint

Outstanding post!

Unfortunately we are always going to have parents who are not highly motivated to parent well or simply don't have the ability to be good parents. We know what the results of that can be. Teachers often can and do make a difference.

Mike

TimSullivan · Sep 1, 2002

I did not see your post until Dan referred to it. I taught math or supervised math teachers for 31 years and am sorry that you and your daughter were treated that way.

It does not matter if I agree with the tapping procedure or not, but if your daughter could do well on the test that is the goal. Sometimes for reasons that escape logic the learning of an organizational tool ( the tapping crutch) becomes more important then the actual understanding of the concept. The tapping would only be used until your daughter was comfortable with the mental arithmetic. So if the goal is achieved why do we force the students to continue to tap?

The basic rule I used was KISS. Don’t try to get too cute teaching math. Math is simple and straight forward. Don’t use any crutches that will confuse the student or worst of all anyone that is trying to help them.

I will bet that this teacher’s supervisor went to a workshop and saw this method in a demonstration. Then returned to your district and TOLD the teachers that this was the way it was to be done. The other source could be a text book but that again is approved by the administrators with teacher's input. WOW! we administrators can sure mess things up.

If I had tried to push this on the math teachers I supervised, they would have fought tooth and nail against any such nonsense.

Flint · Sep 2, 2002

Thanks to Mike!

Mark:
"Such a simple thing to add a word of wisdom here and there, instead of collapsing in front of the tube with a Bud. Not a bad upbringing. Not a bad Dad or Mom, either....just not enough thinking ahead.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Mark!

Tim:
"Dan do not lose your fire for teaching.

Not possible! I came to teaching a little late after floundering for several years after college in a series of jobs, every one of which I hated. Once I began teaching I discovered what it's like to look at your job not as work but just what you love to do.

Gary:
" . . . one or zero parent homes.
"The situation has gotten so bad that the schools are not only providing lunch and, in recent years, breakfast as well but now they are looking at providing dinner also if students choose to stay that long.

Excellent points, Gary. The middle school I teach at has the lowest socio-economic level of all in our area. When I began teaching 11 or 12 years ago it was not uncommon for close to 50% of kids to come from divorced families. (I remember being in 8th grade myself when one of my best friends said his parents were getting divorced. We were all shocked! We didn't know anyone who was divorced.) Now, most of my classes approach 75%. Many of these, of course are still two parent homes with step-parents, but it's amazing how many of our kids are being raised by grandparents, other family members, or foster parents. My team at school has about 120 kids and we knew of at least 5 who had one parent in prison. And this is in a suburban area of Portland. I can't imagine what some areas of LA, Chicago, New York, etc. must be like. I remember how we used to make fun of school cafeteria food. It tells you something when you hear kids talk about how great the food is at school or you see them eating like you'd think they had a hollow leg. (Our school has a summer meal program which draws over 100 kids a day.) My team will sometimes talk about our frustrations with some kids and then find out later what their home life is like and then you think it's a wonder they survive at all. It truly is a testament to the resiliency (sp?) of the human spirit.

Dan