Today's oil filters

[3930dave]

Good point, and thanks Dave.

It didn't occur to me the ECM folks during engine development would benchmark flow some engine intake manifolds & adjust the A/F ratio code to each cylinder!

Great concept.

Thanks,

No prob. In a past life, I used to write low level code, but not for engines - so that was only a guess, but a semi-educated one .

While not cheap, the engineering time you'd put into flow mapping the head for each runner can easily be amortized over the high volumes of engines being produced - it's a heckuva lot cheaper than adding individual runner airflow sensors to production motors. If the front end design software for the head is good/mature enough - you may actually be able to predict the airflow characteristics of each runner pretty closely.

But.... it's alway good to pretend the lab is in Missouri, and actually measure the results !

All this work tends to keep oil (and air) cleaner....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

From what I know, NOX emissions tend to be higher with DI engines which is what EGR is used to reduce.

GM hasn't been using EGR much for awhile now. The new Honda DI engines do not have EGR either.

Lack of cashflow aside, I'm not interested in buying a gas DI motor until some of these early issues are shaken out. I know GM was having a cam chain stretching problem on slightly older engines, I hope they have that sorted on the DI motor - that would be expensive to fix under our current "emission" testing system. Personally I'd sooner change an EGR valve, than change the timing chain on today's scrunchboxes.

Once there is nothing but air crossing over the intake valves on a DI motor, that's the one I want to know about !

Rgds, D.

 

[Peacock]

Lack of cashflow aside, I'm not interested in buying a gas DI motor until some of these early issues are shaken out. I know GM was having a cam chain stretching problem on slightly older engines, I hope they have that sorted on the DI motor - that would be expensive to fix under our current "emission" testing system. Personally I'd sooner change an EGR valve, than change the timing chain on today's scrunchboxes. Once there is nothing but air crossing over the intake valves on a DI motor, that's the one I want to know about ! Rgds, D.

The cam chain problem was more of a combination of two problems. Sensitive software that didn't allow much discrepancy in cam/crank sync and too long of OCI's. They combated this with a PCM flash, requirement of Dexos oil and on some vehicles, a flash of the oil change minder.

As far as I know it's pretty well fixed the problem.

 

[3930dave]

The cam chain problem was more of a combination of two problems. Sensitive software that didn't allow much discrepancy in cam/crank sync and too long of OCI's. They combated this with a PCM flash, requirement of Dexos oil and on some vehicles, a flash of the oil change minder.

As far as I know it's pretty well fixed the problem.

Thanks Peacock - not surprised to hear about an oil issue - camchains aren't exactly new technology. I had't realized about No EGR, now I understand why these were throwing codes and why GM was quick to pick up the warranty work on that issue. I'd hate to see the bill otherwise. The 6's I was talking about with a GM tech meant you were pulling the motor to change the chain, at least in those particular sport-cutes.

Lies, darn lies, and what the display on the dash says !

On my vehicles, I'm not interested in pushing out OCI, unless I'm getting UOA done.

Rgds, D.

 

[buickanddeere]

The 2.4L DI gassers from 2010-2011 suffered several minor issues and when in combination made for serious problems. Granny driving, cheap lube oil and missed oil changes were major contributors. 2012 and later are fine.

 

[buickanddeere]

The diesel in oil is coming from regens on newer diesels (2008+). During the regen cycle diesel is injected in the exhaust stroke to increase exhaust temperatures. This allows the cleaning of the diesel particulate filter by burning out collected soot. Unfortunately this also allows unburned fuel to wash down the cylinder wall. This process is specific to Diesel engines and is not caused by direct injection itself but rather by emissions controls. Also, this is the main reason you can no longer extend oil change intervals on newer diesels.

Much of the problem is diesels driven like gassers. Short trips, light loads and never warmed up. Causes much more frequent regen cycles. On a cold engine to add insult to injury.

 

[Soundguy]

I'm an ole geezer. When automotive applications went from oil bath to paper filters, ring jobs went away. Used to be, back in the 50's, 30,000 miles meant a ring job or lots of smoke. Now what? Filters, lubricants, metalurgy and engine controls. All of the above. Same for ag applications.

oil bath air filters do a GREAT job of filtering. The main issue is that service dealerships couldn't sell you anything but a half quart of oil. more $$ to sell you a paper filter.. thus more profit.

Now.. as to the oil bath and the user.

I bet few actually read their manuals and SERVICED their oil bath like they should. Read an old tractor manual. many will say to service the oil bath filter DAILY or every 8-10 hours of use. 4 hours in dusty environments. Most guys Iknow with old tractor service them 1 per year liek the oil change.

Gee.. wonder why the rings are wearing out? Should be serviced AT LEAST daily.

Lastly. Back in the day.. like the 50's when you saw a tractor pon a farm.. you might see an 8n taking care of a 50-100ac farm.. and it DID go out and worked 8-10-15 hours plowing or discing or mowing or raking. Think that guy looked down and said. whoa.. it's lunch time. i need to service that air filter. Or when rain was coming and they were bailing.. think they stopped to do that 4 hour service. I bet 9 out of 10 times answer = no...

Hours is wear.... if you have lots of wear nad littl eservice.. what do you expect.

The average antique user now probably uses their tractor 1/10th of the way a farmer inthe 50's would have. Back in the 50's that tractor was a huge investment and repalced a mule team... nowadays the average still working oldie mows a hunting lease once per year.. or mows a pasture 8 times a year.. etc. IE.. light duty.. so yeah... a set of rings now lasts 30 years.

got to keep it all in perspective.

 

[3930dave]

Much of the problem is diesels driven like gassers. Short trips, light loads and never warmed up. Causes much more frequent regen cycles. On a cold engine to add insult to injury.

I was about to say I don't like seeing even old diesels driven like that , but heck, in extreme cases I don't like seeing a gas motor used that way.

There was a good discussion (likely on BITOG) about the need for an Ultra Severe Service category. The guy that kicked it off had a relative that pretty much only drove their car 1 mile, from home to work. I think the guy has a point. The same people that pay no attention to the Severe Service category, probably won't pay attention to an Ultra category, but it might be useful to the Manufacturer/Dealer when they get to explain why the engine computer is calling for an oil change at 2,000 miles.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

oil bath air filters do a GREAT job of filtering. The main issue is that service dealerships couldn't sell you anything but a half quart of oil. more $$ to sell you a paper filter.. thus more profit.

Now.. as to the oil bath and the user.

I bet few actually read their manuals and SERVICED their oil bath like they should. Read an old tractor manual. many will say to service the oil bath filter DAILY or every 8-10 hours of use. 4 hours in dusty environments. Most guys Iknow with old tractor service them 1 per year liek the oil change.

Gee.. wonder why the rings are wearing out? Should be serviced AT LEAST daily.

Lastly. Back in the day.. like the 50's when you saw a tractor pon a farm.. you might see an 8n taking care of a 50-100ac farm.. and it DID go out and worked 8-10-15 hours plowing or discing or mowing or raking. Think that guy looked down and said. whoa.. it's lunch time. i need to service that air filter. Or when rain was coming and they were bailing.. think they stopped to do that 4 hour service. I bet 9 out of 10 times answer = no...

Hours is wear.... if you have lots of wear nad littl eservice.. what do you expect.

The average antique user now probably uses their tractor 1/10th of the way a farmer inthe 50's would have. Back in the 50's that tractor was a huge investment and repalced a mule team... nowadays the average still working oldie mows a hunting lease once per year.. or mows a pasture 8 times a year.. etc. IE.. light duty.. so yeah... a set of rings now lasts 30 years.

got to keep it all in perspective.

Interesting - I knew about the concept, and that they were used on old iron, but didn't realize the oil bath air cleaner was supposed to be serviced that often. Agreed, I'd bet that few got maintained anywhere close to what the factory was specing for intervals.

Material science and lubes have made some advances from those days, but anybody that was around an old working farm would agree that those small utility tractors were always worked very hard - that many survived, even in a tired form, is a testimony to how well made they were.

Rgds, D.

 

[Soundguy]

I'd even go with the good oil advances too.

Got to be something better than starting a cold engine on 40w straight oil if you farmed in texas, and needed the 40w when hot and hard. but in the mornings there had to be accelerated wear.

pop over to a modern 15w40 and big change.

Not to mention there are plenty of stories of peole using self-recycled oil int heir tractors. IE.. draint he oil out of the car and run that inthe tractor.

poor things just got no love..

Interesting - I knew about the concept, and that they were used on old iron, but didn't realize the oil bath air cleaner was supposed to be serviced that often. Agreed, I'd bet that few got maintained anywhere close to what the factory was specing for intervals.

Material science and lubes have made some advances from those days, but anybody that was around an old working farm would agree that those small utility tractors were always worked very hard - that many survived, even in a tired form, is a testimony to how well made they were.

Rgds, D.