Toilet flapper help please

[Artisan]

I have not read this whole post but putting any chemical bowl
cleaners in the tank and or highly chlorinated water destroys
tank flappers. Just pick up almost any "KORKY" brand flapper
or WolverineBrass' "Big Orange" flappers are OK as well. I see
flappers go bad in as little as 1 year. Fluidmaster fill valves
w/ the threaded inlet Brass Shank work well too.

The old arm and ball fill valve design is so last decade...
Fluidmaster Nailed It w/ there design. They really work well.

Putting BRICKS in your tank to save water will only lead to
toilet failure for the brick breaks down and the particles
get stuck in the little holes around the rim.

BELIEVE IT

 

[jinman]

My American Standard toilets have a flapper valve adjustment by adjusting the little yellow foam float's position on the chain. the foam will hold the flapper open a longer/shorter time while it floats on the surface of the tank's water. When the inrush of water catches the flapper as water flushes down, it overcomes the little float and sucks the flapper down to its seat. The longer the chain adjustment, the shorter the flush.

 

[JohninCT]

I reckon what i dont understand is how complicated could a flapper be?? it should be buy flapper, install flapper, and not have to worry about it not working correctly - but it serves a very simple, but (obviously) yet complex purpose. I just want the toilet to work the way it did when new..

We live on a well, so I dont like to waste water (no pun intended) when possible.. Especially when it has been as dry as it has been lately.

The toilet is an American Standard and the fill valve (and other guts) is fluidmaster - and I have tried fluidmaster flappers and they didnt work correctly.. When i replaced them last time I tried about 3 different flappers but they all allowed a full tank flush.. I finally gave up, but this time I wanted to try and find a solution.

right now I have consumption to about 2.5 gallons, which i can probably live with - but I may try to put something in the tank to take up about 1/2 gallon of space..

thanks

I didn't realize myself until reading this thread and looking around the internet how complicated a toilet flapper could be. Apparently, the problem of early failures and leakage has been the subject of study for many years.

http://www.map-testing.com/assets/files/Koeller%20J.%20Toilet%20Flappers%20-%20The%20Former%20Weak%20Link%20of%20Water%20Conservation.pdf

As mentioned, in tank chemical cleaners are one of the problems. The paper also indicates that the "universal" toilet valve kits sold in consumer stores is not that universal when it comes to the low flush volume toilets. It sounds like the same valve installed in different manufacturers toilets will result in different flush water volume perfomance. Who knew

You are right about the adjustable flapper... The dial settings result in different counterweight allowing the flapper to stay open shorter or longer (in theory anyway).

Fill Valve and Flapper Adjustment - YouTube

Based on what I've seen and read now, I would tend to stay away from the dial adjustable flappers. The ones with the adjustable float seem to me to be easier to adjust and may be more effective.

 

[clemsonfor]

I had the same thought and tried lengthening the chain but at some point it was hitting the lid of the commode before opening the flapper so i started shortening it.. But from watching the flush at any length of chain, as soon as the water flow starts it pushes the flapper all the way up and it wont drop until the water level reaches the flapper level.

from watching the old flapper it was not as affected by the water leaving the tank, so it would close while there was about 1/2 tank of water..

its almost like the flapper needs some weight but that would probably cause it to close too early.. the only other thing would have a 'float' some how push the flapper down at a certain water level..

Brian

I think the air in the flapper bottom holds itup till the water goes down then it falls with the level to close. I have a plastic fluidmaster valve and i can regulate it fairly well. But i do think there are a few different kinds, maybe you need a new valve? I have older toilets like i said and you cant go to low on water level cause it effects the flush.

 

[clemsonfor]

The paper also indicates that the "universal" toilet valve kits sold in consumer stores is not that universal when it comes to the low flush volume toilets. It sounds like the same valve installed in different manufacturers toilets will result in different flush water volume perfomance. Who knew

.

This only makes sense and why i keep asking about his valve. Think some low flow toilets have a really small tank and on a small frame toilet, some look just like my 35yr old toilets tank and are the same volume, so how in the world can a valve adjusted at the same vertical height in each toilet provide the same gallons per flush? Think about it a 2L bottle half full is not the same as 3L bottle half full? This is the same result as a fill valve mounted at the same given height in each bowl. And at a point they both bottom out leaving a "standard" amt of water in a tank, which may result in more than 1.6 gals.

 

[thatguy]

Are you sure that the little tube that sticks down into the flush breather column does not go so far down into it that it is below your fill water level? If it is it can siphon water from the tank into the column and thus the bowl. It could be this rather than an actual leak at the flapper.
larry

'flush breather column' is that the same as the 'overfill tube'? thats the only thing that I see that has a tube attached to..

I added food coloring to the tank and over a few hrs it turned the water in the tank the same color..

brian

 

[thatguy]

My American Standard toilets have a flapper valve adjustment by adjusting the little yellow foam float's position on the chain. the foam will hold the flapper open a longer/shorter time while it floats on the surface of the tank's water. When the inrush of water catches the flapper as water flushes down, it overcomes the little float and sucks the flapper down to its seat. The longer the chain adjustment, the shorter the flush.

View attachment 274278

now that you mention it.. I think this was what was originally in it.. BUT when I replaced the flappers the first time i couldnt find those locally.. Maybe i need to find that style again, since it was the OEM type of flapper..

Brian

 

[EE_Bota]

The OLD flapper had a dial on the topside from 'max' to 'min' - I BELIEVE, that the dial some how that adjusted how much water is let into the flapper so it closed quicker.. BUT im not sure..

The NEW flapper I bought had a similar dial on the underside of the flapper (on the end of the 'bulb' that goes into the channel leading to the toilet) - and what it appears to do is control how much water leaves the bulb - which I assume if there water in the bulb the weight will close the valve quicker..

Our toilets dont have the rod, it has a float that rides on the water input valve..


QUESTION FOR EVERYONE - do your toilets completely empty the tank on each flush? Are your toiled the 1.6 gpf models or the older ones that used 2.5 or or gallons?

Brian

Mine fully empty. But if I wanted to use a partial tank, I'd rather start with a full tank, and have the flapper close early if possible, as you are trying to do. The pressure on the water that does get used will be slightly higher at the bowl so, it may make a slightly cleaner flush.

Edit: If your present flapper looks conventional, but is variable in reality, I think the variability comes from water entering the bulb rather than water leaving. I think pre-flush, the bulb is empty. At flush, the empty volume starts filling with the water the bulb is floating on, and quite possibly, air bubbles are escaping at the top of the bulb too. Once enough water has emptied to make the flapper not float, it slams shut, and all water drains from the bulb, replaced by air, for the next try.

 

[thatguy]

I didn't realize myself until reading this thread and looking around the internet how complicated a toilet flapper could be. Apparently, the problem of early failures and leakage has been the subject of study for many years.

http://www.map-testing.com/assets/files/Koeller%20J.%20Toilet%20Flappers%20-%20The%20Former%20Weak%20Link%20of%20Water%20Conservation.pdf

As mentioned, in tank chemical cleaners are one of the problems. The paper also indicates that the "universal" toilet valve kits sold in consumer stores is not that universal when it comes to the low flush volume toilets. It sounds like the same valve installed in different manufacturers toilets will result in different flush water volume perfomance. Who knew

You are right about the adjustable flapper... The dial settings result in different counterweight allowing the flapper to stay open shorter or longer (in theory anyway).

Fill Valve and Flapper Adjustment - YouTube

Based on what I've seen and read now, I would tend to stay away from the dial adjustable flappers. The ones with the adjustable float seem to me to be easier to adjust and may be more effective.

thank you, thank you, thank you JohninCT - you have validated my problem of the flapper being the issue and any other 'fix' is just a work around.

For those that havent read the link to the study

=========
Problem No. 2 - After-Market Replacement Flappers
Flapper replacement by the consumer?
Most consumers, upon discovering a leak in their toilet (whether resulting from normal 努ear and tear or from the use of an in-tank bowl cleaner), will attempt to locate a replacement flapper that stops the leak. When consumers look for such a replacement, they will generally visit the most convenient retail hardware store or home center for that product. In most cases, they will not contact the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) to obtain the exact replacement part that is designed for their toilet fixture.

When visiting the retail store, customers will find it extremely difficult to: (1) locate a flapper that is physically compatible with the flush valve (it fits the valve and does not leak, even though it may be the incorrect flapper for that toilet); and (2) determine that the replacement flapper maintains the 1.6-gpf characteristic of the original flapper in the ULF toilet. Whereas a consumer may easily locate a flapper that is physically compatible, they may not be able to discern whether the flapper meets the second requirement (a 1.6 gallon flush). Furthermore, once having satisfied the first requirement, many consumers may not be aware of the 1.6 gallon criteria or may even prefer a flapper that exceeds 1.6-gpf. Therefore, fixtures that are designed to function at 1.6-gpf are being fitted with after-market replacement flappers that cause the fixture to flush at volumes in excess of that figure.


thanks JohninCt
Brian

 

[thatguy]

7-23-12 - Just a quick update.. Found a local plumbing store that had a flapper in stock with the float (which is what it had originally) and got it installed this afternoon.. First flush (without even adjusting the float) used less than 1/2 of the tank and gave a complete flush..

We have a winner... Just needed to stick with the OEM style..


Here is a pic of the winner -