Traction Traction Issues

[Achilles]

This is the first year on the 4310 and fairly new to the rear blower. Does any have issues with r4's and traction on a slight grade on black top. Holy Moly. The rear end especially is quite squirrely. I have heard of folks swapping sides with the tires/wheels thus improving traction. Is this worth my time??? I have a woods 60" and have kept the FEL on. Tires are not loaded. I figure with the loader and the blower I have plenty of weight. I have tended to try and float the blower and not rest all the wt. on the ground and that helps a bit but not too much. Any suggestions out there other than strapping chains on and thus munching my driveway to
Sh*$? I have read in certain threads that folks generally like turfs better in this type application, any thoughts? Thanks for any help.

4310man, cold in Buffalo, NY

 

[JackIL]

There is an alternative tire chain that you may want to consider. The crossbars are made of rubber and the side links are made of regular chain. The rubber does not damage paved driveways. See attached photo where I have tham on both front and rear of a 955.

These Traction Aids (as they are called) are made by Hemler Manufacturing of Lancaster, PA. I ordered mine through Dave Anderson of Deer Creek Equipment, Oxford, PA. (800-255-6567).

I also had the maximum amount of cast rear wheel weight on the 955 as you can see. No problem with traction at all and no scuffing of the asphalt.

JackIL

 

[tomrscott]

Conventional wisdom would say you need ballast.

How much weight per horsepower do you have now, excluding implements? My 30 hp JD 790 would only have about 70 lb/hp without ballast. I think most applications need to get up over 100 lb/hp excluding implements. Of course the ground surface quality matters too, but I think the 100 lb/hp min is probably in the ballpark for most applications. Horsepower tends to make them slip, weight (friction) tends to make them grip, you have to have a balance.

Don't count on your loader offering any assistance, most of it's weight is in front of the front wheels and hurts more than it helps. I plan to add about 1000 pounds of wheel weights (home-made). That will give me just about 103 lb/hp before adding any implements. If that isn't enough, I could add about another 600 pounds by filling my R4s. That would get me up to 123 lb/hp.

The best place to add weight is at the wheels themselves. There is no point adding 50% more load to my wheel bearings and chassis when I don't have to. Weight on the wheel only stresses the wheel rim and just sits on the ground. Sure, I know the bearings can survive the load, but if I can get the job done at the wheels, that's my preference.

I have a 537 pound boxblade that will help with ballast when I'm lifting with the FEL, but that doesn't help when I'm dragging the boxblade on the ground. Actually I will get better rear traction for the boxblade by taking the FEL off.

Cheapest commercially available steel I've seen is weightlifting weights. Walmart had 45 pound weights that were about 15" diameter and 1.5" thick, $21 each, $0.47/lb. I could fit six of those in each of my 15-19.5 R4s, for 270 pounds each wheel. You can get a kit from EZ-Weight to attach a 1" threaded rod on the wheel for mounting weightlifting weights, but personally I decided that I would just drill the weightlifting weights for the standard wheel-weight bolt pattern. I've also heard of 50 lb weights that are thinner than this, but the WalMart deal is the best price I've found. Tractor-branded wheel weights may cost about $1 to $2 /lb.

Of course you can also fill the tires. My R4s would hold about 29 gallons at 75% full (to keep the valve above water). Non-corrosive "Rim-Guard" costs about $3/gal around here, and is about 11lb/gal, for a total of 319 pounds per wheel at $0.27/lb. Water is free at about 8 pounds/gal, but would freeze, so some put glycol in, but if you have to drain it out, that's a lot of poisonous glycol to drain someplace and keep the animals out of it. Windshield washer fluid is about $0.99/gal at WalMart, rated anywhere from 0degF, -20degF, and some even -50degF, but lighter than water, maybe about 7lb/gal, for about $0.14/lb.

In my case I found a 1500 pound plate of 3/8" steel that I plan to cut up into 16" disks. Flat plate like that adds up to more weight per wheel because it is completely flat. Weightlifting weights have lots of recesses (raised lettering, recessed surfaces, hole in the middle) so they don't give you as much weight density. I even thought about filling the holes and recesses with molten lead before drilling and stacking them...

The flat plate of steel won in the end for me. It is going to cost me a bit to cut it up into disks, but gives me the best weight per wheel without filling the tires.

That pretty well summarizes my thought process about tractive ballast.

 

[JoshJ]

Dont know if you use your FEL much while blowing, but you might want to see how your tractor performs with it OFF. As its been said, the FEL hangs weight in FRONT of the tractor, and may actually pull weight off your back end. If it is easy to take off, you may wanna give it a try.
Also "floating your snowblower". Not sure what u mean, but you may want pick up your blower a hair so it clears the ground and its entire weight hangs on the 3PT. (Maybe you do this already?) Can't give you a lot of advice as i have never run a snowblower before.

 

[art]

The best winter tire on black top is the turf tire as it gives the best foot print or has the largest amount of contact. The industrials have had some troubles for traction and the best that might be suggested is to be sure the air pressure is right to give you the most amount of grip. Lower your air pressure so that the complete bar is on the ground touching on both outer ends of the cleats. That will give youthe best traction you can have with any tire.

 

[JimR]

One thing you need to note about tire width size and snow. The larger the footprint, the less amount of weight per square inch on ground contact. So a wider tire actually has less grabbing capabilities than a skinny tire in the snow. They are better for traction on dry ground. I found this out years ago plowing with 12.00-16.5's on my old F250 I had. I was always getting stuck in snow banks and such. My buddy suggested a standard width snow tire. Back then I too thought that the wider meant better, not true. Narrow tires cut through the snow better to get to the hard surface faster. Turfs stink in the snow. I can't climb anything with my naked turfs. The only thing that saves me is the front tires are industrials. I am putting chains on my rear turfs today.

 

[JJT]

Get yourself a set of double ring chains, the difference is amazing. I can do things now in 2wd that I couldn't do before in 4wd with the diff locked.

Don't take your fel off, you'll need it for stacking snow or cleaning out aroung the mailbox and the front of the garage, etc.

My tires are calcium loaded, and would do it again. I don't use the tractor for finish mowing, so the extra weight doesn't bother me.

 

[jmc]

4310man,

In response to several comments about the FEL hurting traction:
Whatever weight the FEL takes off the rear wheels, it transfers to the front wheels, in addition to the weight of the FEL itself to the front wheels. So a 500 lb FEL takes 500 lb off the rear but adds 1000 lb to the front. If You're in 2WD you lose traction but if you're in 4WD you gain traction.

John

 

[bugstruck]

John, Your analysis just answered your initial question on the rear end being loose (light) with the loader. I'd be inclined to fill the rear tires if that doesn't create another problem and if your sitting on the $$$$. You also reduce air pressure with filled tires and get a real good footprint of tire on the ground with R-4's. If it's hilly it also stabilizes the tractor laterally. You may need chains too, but if your making do (albeit nerve wracking) without filled tires, filling would be the other best solution. Just one thing to remember with weight. Once is starts moving (sliding) it's generally slower to stop. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Good Luck /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[JimR]

Put a set of these on and you will have tons of traction.

 

[bugstruck]

Jim, That's the setup. I was advised by two people (familiar with my driveway) at the local Deere place that my little 325 wouldn't return up the driveway incline after I pushed snow on the way down. It bites off 5" of snow on 3/4 of the blade on the uphill pass. It's those chains and being properly weighted. I'm one mini suitcase weight over the factory max. with wheel weights installed. When it's icy I won't move the 4wd Kubota. If I chain that up it would be a driveway eater on my slope. So sometimes bigger and much heavier isn't the best solution. Attached a photo of the little one. Similiar to your tire cross chain frequency. Now, where's the snow???

Thanks,

 

[JimR]

Is your incline like this driveway? I plowed this this morning with my rear blade in 2 wd with the chains on. I never spun a wheel.

 

[Achilles]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I tend to frequently use the loader to clean bits and pieces up, however it isn't essential. I suppose I will try with it off as this is the cheapest solution as someone stole our moneytree. I opted out of the loaded tires as much of the yard is a bit squishy (is that a word?). I suppose wheel wts and lowering pressure may be the next step, aside from JimR coming over with his blacktop eaters. Wifey likes the nice new driveway.
thanks again guys.

4310man

 

[JimR]

Why do people call tire chains blacktop eaters? I had chains on my 8N also and never destroyed my smaller driveway that I had before we replaced the old one with a much larger driveway when we built our garage. The old driveway was 14 years old when I had it replaced. It was in perect condition except for a few stress cracks from the frost we get each year. Chains do leave marks if you spin the wheels alot. They do not rip up the pavement unless you run off the edge and catch it. In which case that is the drivers fault and not the chains.

 

[bugstruck]

Jim, Can't tell how steep what your plowing is. Looks level but cameras aren't good at indication inclines unless your on the side taking the shot or have a reference. Mine is attached. If you can make out the top of the distant tree line (dark narrow band) through my trees, that is about level with where I was standing when taking the shot. The main road is the little light spot at the bottom of my drive. It's 380 feet of drive with about 50' drop. The fuel oil company that delivers to me (largest around) has to back up as the turn-a-round is inclined enough to possibly roll them. Takes them a couple of tries sometimes and the load has to be just right. To full or empty and it can't be done. Driver told me there are about 10 real tough delivery addresses that are known just by the house number. No need to mention the road name. Mine is # 2 on their list for hardest deliveries. The # 1 most difficult is a steep gravel with a cliff. It's allot worse than this photo can show.

 

[JimR]

I think we are running about the same on elevation. My driveway is a little over 65 feet long with about an 8 foot drop. It is wicked in the winter when it snows. We can't get out with the cars without salt or sand for traction if it is snow covered. My truck 4WD has no problems climbing out.

 

[TMcD_in_MI]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Why do people call tire chains blacktop eaters? ... Chains do leave marks if you spin the wheels alot. They do not rip up the pavement unless you run off the edge and catch it. )</font>

JimR,

I totally agree. I used to plow our blacktop with a Ford 2000 and a front blade. There were some light scratch marks each spring from wheelspin where I was pushing back the snowbanks, but never any real damage.

I now have a 4310 with a front blower, loaded rear tires and no chains. I've had no traction troubles this winter - knock on wood.

Tom

 

[bugstruck]

Now I have the picture. That is allot of drop in 60 odd feet. Same on our cars. If I can't see 60% plus asphalt it's a walk up with the cars. The 4wd trucks don't do as well as one would think. It's all over for them at about 3". Make it maybe halfway and then it gets real interesting with the curve and trees on the backdown. Former owner told me the same and I didn't believe him. Showed me his bent up rear bumper from his attempt at 3". He had it right.

Most people clear and maybe salt. Guess were stuck with adding traction control to that equation. I use barn grit most of the time.

 

[Dave4410]

I think you guys with 4wd would find that when the driveway is slippery it's quicker work to simply plow, push or blow on the downhill passes only. This is true for a blade, bucket or blower. Unless you're on an extremely steep slope, you shouldn't have to do more than lowering the rear tire pressure to get the uphill traction you need. It also helps to keep the front wheels straight when backing-up on slippery surfaces.