Redneck in training
Elite Member
Hey, I even speak Russian. I think I confused Kraz with ZIL in my previous post.
Tractor backhoe - homemade
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Hey, I even speak Russian. I think I confused Kraz with ZIL in my previous post.
ArtMech
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I'm nearly to forget this language, but you still speak!! :laughing::laughing:
Yes, ZIL trucks had V8 gas engines. Say "had", 'cause maybe they started to fit diesels meanwhile in the mass production of their trucks, what I don't know.
Look at this if you haven't seen it yet: Slava Saakyan envisions a New ZiL Limo for Russian President Medvedev and his entourage - Carscoops. Looks like they want to come back with the limos.
Renze
Elite Member
imported as a dirt cheap Russian army surplus sale. Then put a 40kmh sticker on it and registered it as an agricultural vehicle. Emission norms were absent in Holland too when that truck was built, and the emission that was valid in the year of manufacture, counts.
There is only one guy driving it, it either has no, or poorly functioning power steering, a huge steering wheel and it needs muscle to steer it. As far as i know a big pig farmer bought it from army surplus and built the tank on it, sold it later to this contractor who uses it as a backup during the spring peak, when the maize fields have to be fertilised before planting.
In fact the comfort in that KrAZ is similar to farm tractors of that era.
Renze
Elite Member
There were a few MTZ 80 tractors sold in my area in the 80s.. Not really a lot, mostly Ursus and Zetor, and a good bunch of Tatra 815 6x6 dumptrucks. Remember, i am from Holland, not the USA: In the USA you wont find any foreign truck, not USSR, not Euro. An American truck with a long bonnet is a rare sight in Europe because of length restrictions, and different understanding of comfort. Russian trucks are a rare sight anyway in Holland, i think the two from the contractor were purchased from army surplus by traders who wanted to export them to Africa, but somehow a farmer bought one to have a cheap means of manure transportation.
I also have to add, i have a certain interest in the Eastern technology. What i find is how consumer products like a Lada car was on the cheap (a license built Fiat 124 with 1.2mm sheetmetal instead of the 0.8mm which the original design used, the extra weight and the increased ride height to cope with Russian road conditions also causes the poor handling in corners) where a Kirovets K700 tractor was in fact better than many Western competitors, because it was designed as an army rocket tractor, with unlimited military R&D budget... And the smaller Kharkov T-150 tractor was not very reliable because it had to be developed on a lower budget for non-military products... Same with the combat tanks, the Russians had better tanks untill communism was nearing bankruptcy. The Russians were the first to travel space by their own means, when the American team didnt succeed they let Wernher von Braun and his team of captured POW German V2 engineers of the former 3rd Reich have their go, which resulted in a succesful moon landing...
In fact the 1957 Russian rocket technology is still the backbone for the international space program, after the 3rd or 4th generation of American space shuttle is canceled...
So many interesting facts, Westerners ofter laugh at Russians, while the Russian technology often succeeded, just their system failed...
The Russians were the first to travel space by their own means, when the American team didnt succeed they let Wernher von Braun and his team of captured POW German V2 engineers of the former 3rd Reich have their go, which resulted in a succesful moon landing...
Your post suggests the United States would not have been successful without the help of Von Braun and his scientists. Probably not as quickly but I suggest you do a little research on the Russian Space Program. The Russians also used captured German scientists and their technology. The Germans were years ahead of both the United States and the Russians in Rocket technology.
Your post suggests the United States would not have been successful without the help of Von Braun and his scientists. Probably not as quickly but I suggest you do a little research on the Russian Space Program. The Russians also used captured German scientists and their technology. The Germans were years ahead of both the United States and the Russians in Rocket technology.
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Redneck in training
Elite Member
[/QUOTE]
The Russians did the same. Used POW to build and develops all kinds of stuff. The difference is that Americans gave them credit and paid them while Russians didn't. I used to work in Russia (spent there several years all added together). I remember one event from 1979. If you looked or visited any building at that time you would see very poor workmanship. Crooked windows and doors, stairs half step of the floor, balcony that would fall off if you stepped on it etc. Then I went to visit Volgograd hydropower station. It was like stepping in another world. The floors were tiled with perfect tiles, the stairs matched the floor, the banisters were nicely made, and nothing was crooked there. It was designed and build by German POW after the war.
Volga Hydroelectric Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ArtMech
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Our discussion got out of thread subject, but let fellow BFreaky take a coffee break. 
Renze, I saw from the beginning you're from Holland.
You say Westerners laugh at Russians... But from inside of the USSR there was nothing fun.
Starting from 1945 (if about my country) all was nationalized, like they say. But in fact people were simply robed. These who resisted were tortured, killed or sent to Siberia to build military objects - we've lost hundreds of thousands most advanced citizens of a nation. We had no privacy, KGB controlled EVERYTHING - you never know whether your friend is an agent or not, people were afraid to speak, had nothing to eat - empty shops. We were simply transformed into slaves.
Today's example - North Korea is exactly the same what it was the USSR.
So these slaves had been working for totalitarian military system - machine building industry, food production, textile industry, road building, military factories’ building, power plants’ building ... up to, as you say, space technology development, which originally also has the military aim first. Saying slaves I mean cheap labour.
The technological ideas were simply stolen from the West, especially from the USA by the KGB spies. Many products were copied, modified and/or somehow developed. As to what I know, USA were developing its space technologies gently, with no hurry, taking into account safety first. USSR had just one goal – to overtake the USA whatever it costs. Have you heard that many professionals died in the accidents of rocket sites and ranges? They hide it, but there are hundreds of deaths.
Lada - Fiat-124? Such an industrial country! Why couldn't it build its own car factory if it’s so smart? So here come the licenses. Including KamAZ - not only the vehicle project, but the whole factory had been built under license. All the other automotive factories had been brought from Germany right after the WW2 (AZLK/Opel for instance).
T-150 as well as K-700 both are military tractors. Each product (except directly military) designed to have two purposes - military and civil. BTW both tractors are not well treated because of endless repairs and safety. There are several cases just in my country, when a K-700 drivers accidently died after rollover.
Financing – from trade of weapon, mineral, oil, gas. All the 3rd world is armed by soviet weapons. That money goes to ... where do you think? Yes, to the creation of new weapons (tanks, trucks, missiles, war ships e.c.), military R&D as you said. Here comes the politics. To keep up the weapon trade on top, requires to create hot spots on the Globe. Here we have wars, which are real money makers for the weapon producers. They say they export peoples revolution to the world. Would you like to import such revolution to Holland? I don’t think so if you would see how it goes in the East.
Normally budget is a flexible thing. You can increase it for space and military purpose, but in case of economical crisis or social issues, it should be reduced or reconciled to the new priorities. That is clear in the Western countries. But the generals of so much centralized country like USSR was, didn't want to understand it. They ask for more and more, and they don't care, that people soon will start fighting for survival because of hunger danger. The world's oil price drops and country quickly goes out of budget. What to do? Already nothing, it's a bankruptcy and collapse of a country. Here comes the end.
How could a super-centralized country persist without people’s private motivation, spending most of the budget for the military purposes? No way. That system (Lenin’s system) doomed to failure from its first steps. As you know it has happened within one night only - on the 8th of December, 1991. Can you figure out any other normal country disappearance from the world map within one night? I can’t.
Sorry for so long write up, but I just described what was going on in the USSR and what were the circumstances concerning the technologies and development.
Renze, I saw from the beginning you're from Holland.
You say Westerners laugh at Russians... But from inside of the USSR there was nothing fun.
Starting from 1945 (if about my country) all was nationalized, like they say. But in fact people were simply robed. These who resisted were tortured, killed or sent to Siberia to build military objects - we've lost hundreds of thousands most advanced citizens of a nation. We had no privacy, KGB controlled EVERYTHING - you never know whether your friend is an agent or not, people were afraid to speak, had nothing to eat - empty shops. We were simply transformed into slaves.
Today's example - North Korea is exactly the same what it was the USSR.
So these slaves had been working for totalitarian military system - machine building industry, food production, textile industry, road building, military factories’ building, power plants’ building ... up to, as you say, space technology development, which originally also has the military aim first. Saying slaves I mean cheap labour.
The technological ideas were simply stolen from the West, especially from the USA by the KGB spies. Many products were copied, modified and/or somehow developed. As to what I know, USA were developing its space technologies gently, with no hurry, taking into account safety first. USSR had just one goal – to overtake the USA whatever it costs. Have you heard that many professionals died in the accidents of rocket sites and ranges? They hide it, but there are hundreds of deaths.
Lada - Fiat-124? Such an industrial country! Why couldn't it build its own car factory if it’s so smart? So here come the licenses. Including KamAZ - not only the vehicle project, but the whole factory had been built under license. All the other automotive factories had been brought from Germany right after the WW2 (AZLK/Opel for instance).
T-150 as well as K-700 both are military tractors. Each product (except directly military) designed to have two purposes - military and civil. BTW both tractors are not well treated because of endless repairs and safety. There are several cases just in my country, when a K-700 drivers accidently died after rollover.
Financing – from trade of weapon, mineral, oil, gas. All the 3rd world is armed by soviet weapons. That money goes to ... where do you think? Yes, to the creation of new weapons (tanks, trucks, missiles, war ships e.c.), military R&D as you said. Here comes the politics. To keep up the weapon trade on top, requires to create hot spots on the Globe. Here we have wars, which are real money makers for the weapon producers. They say they export peoples revolution to the world. Would you like to import such revolution to Holland?
I don’t think so if you would see how it goes in the East.Normally budget is a flexible thing. You can increase it for space and military purpose, but in case of economical crisis or social issues, it should be reduced or reconciled to the new priorities. That is clear in the Western countries. But the generals of so much centralized country like USSR was, didn't want to understand it. They ask for more and more, and they don't care, that people soon will start fighting for survival because of hunger danger. The world's oil price drops and country quickly goes out of budget. What to do? Already nothing, it's a bankruptcy and collapse of a country. Here comes the end.
How could a super-centralized country persist without people’s private motivation, spending most of the budget for the military purposes? No way. That system (Lenin’s system) doomed to failure from its first steps. As you know it has happened within one night only - on the 8th of December, 1991. Can you figure out any other normal country disappearance from the world map within one night? I can’t.
Sorry for so long write up, but I just described what was going on in the USSR and what were the circumstances concerning the technologies and development.
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Redneck in training
Elite Member
What Saracenas says is exactly true. They (commies) would send people to gulag in Russia. Since Czechoslovakia didn't have gulags and imprisonment cost money the Commies in in Czechoslovakia had different system. They would punish somebody you cared about. They would give you wife a job nobody wanted to do. They would assign your children to a day care as far from your work and home as possible, they would do something bad to you brother or best friend. And told you: See what happened to them? That is your fault. There were many people who would make martyrs from themselves, threw themselves to jail just to cause troubles. But because they would bring misfortune on somebody else it was hard to do. It worked perfect. Unfortunately.
Speaking about tractors. My father was a forman in a machinery maintenance shop. When they had to repair a Russian made machine (in example buldozer that was a copy of Caterpillar) they have to make special tools because everything had imperial dimensions except all bolt and nuts that were metric.
BTW I still remember, 35 years later, every single item they had in a supermarket in Volgograd. It tells you it was kind of empty.
We should start another thread devoted badmouthing USSR. I have many stories to tell. Ha Ha.
Speaking about tractors. My father was a forman in a machinery maintenance shop. When they had to repair a Russian made machine (in example buldozer that was a copy of Caterpillar) they have to make special tools because everything had imperial dimensions except all bolt and nuts that were metric.
BTW I still remember, 35 years later, every single item they had in a supermarket in Volgograd. It tells you it was kind of empty.
We should start another thread devoted badmouthing USSR. I have many stories to tell. Ha Ha.
ArtMech
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Ladia, I know what is the meaning of #68 on the jersey of Jaromir Jagr's back :thumbsup: :laughing::laughing:
Renze
Elite Member
Nevermind, i love to hear stories first hand, instead of hearing propaganda from either side...
Since a year or so, i got interested in political filosofies, also the viewpoints of American conservatives, Ronald Reagan, the declaration of independence and the bill of rights. Actually the founding fathers had great insight in the human nature, what happens when a government has too much involvement in peoples lives, how such system creates opportunity for evil dictators to rise.
Another funny thing is how Sergej Korolyov was taken back from the gulag to lead the USSR space program, also a prisoner: Soviet space program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
