tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels

   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #21  
patrick_g said:
The graph shows how much HP COULD BE produced at that RPM if the load were increased to hold the rpm at that level with FULL THROTTLE applied. Otherwise you are developing much less HP. This is true for gas, diesel, steam, etc.

Steam!!! Now we are torquing serious!!

Oh boy, we can talk about all sorts of nifty stuff like Scotch Marines, HRT's, Sterlings, superheaters, simplex, duplex's, tractive effort, waterwalls, BTU/Lb ratios, expansion rates of dry steam vs wet steam....

Woooo-Hoooo!!!! See, all those hours in fireman and steam engineer classes didn't go for nothing.. :D

OK, back to reality :(

Tom:)
 
   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #22  
ccsial said:
John: If you read closer you will see I was comparing car gas engines to tractor gas engines.


ccsial,

I was replying to "Eric in Hoyt". He stated "You don't get that 350 HP until you're above 6000 RPM." refering to the Cummins. That's way off. I'm sure you agree!

I wasn't commenting on your post at all.

jb


Egon said:
Aren't those little engines that make a buzzing sound that are used in model airplanes a diesel?? They turn over at alarming rates of speed. Probably make my chainsaw jealous.


Egon, Yes and no. Yes, The model airplane enginess are compression ignited and have a glow plug. No the fuel is not diesel. The "testers" fuel has a higher (migh higher) flame propagation rate than diesel and thus they are able to rpm higher than a diesel.

When I talk about "Flame propagation rate" it means that the fuel needs a certain amount of time to burn. Gasoline is very fast. Inject enough gas to make 310 hp at 1200 rpm and the piston will fail, the head gasket will lift as the head bolts stretch. Do the same thing with diesel fuel and it sloooowly burns as the piston goes all the way down. That slow burn gives diesels the ability to inject a snit pot of fuel and not have "bad things" happen and it also gives the much higher torque at much lower rpms. That high torque is a result of the near constant pressures in the combustion cylinder as the piston drops. A gas engine gives one "BANG!" at the top and then the pressures drop as the piston drops. If you want some cool tech on the horizon research direct injected gasoline engines. They are to use common rail (22,000 psi) injectors like modern diesels and will inject multiple times at low rpms to get very (VERY) high low rpm torque. They will also be compression fired. All speculative at the moment, but in 10 years you may be driving one....

jb
 
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   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #23  
Injected gasoline engines have been around for many years.

I believe there is also a slight difference in compression rations between diesel and gas to prevent detonation.:D :D :D
 
   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #24  
Injected, yes. But only under 100 psi or so, no where near 22,000 psi. The new ones will be 18:1 to improve effciency and will inject multiple times to prolong the combustion. Whole new deal. Very exciting, probably going to make us long for the age of carburators as new tech is so dern buggy these days...

jb
 
   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #25  
The crucial difference is that most existing gas engines have some form of port fuel injection - fuel is sprayed into the airflow outside of the combustion chamber, before the intake valves close. (Even older systems like my 1986 Plymouth had throttle body injection, which basically replaces a carburetor.) Gasoline direct injection (GDI) is like diesel fuel injection - the fuel is sprayed directly inside the combustion chamber, near the sparkplug, after the intake valves have closed. It happens to be sprayed at very high pressure, but the main important feature is being sprayed inside the chamber instead of into the intake port outside of the chamber.

I think gasoline direct injection is going to revolutionize cars and light trucks and will greatly reduce the attractiveness of diesel for lighter applications. GDI lets an engine run similarly to a diesel at light loads, with very lean mixtures but without detonation that you'd get running those lean mixtures with port injection. It all has to do with how fuel is mixed inside the combustion chamber. At high loads it runs pretty much like a port-injection gas engine, although still a bit more efficient because of better spray pattern and mixing, and no fuel clinging to the cylinder walls and getting wasted. Also it should cost less than a comparable diesel engine, and it doesn't require a turbocharger for good performance. (Diesels don't absolutely require a turbo, but to meet on-road power, emissions and weight requirements, they pretty much practically require a turbo.) On top of all this most engines converted to GDI gain a lot of horsepower compared to their port-injected relative. The GDI engines are starting to appear, for instance in the newest Cadillac sedan, and are probably going to be common in just a few years.
 
   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels
  • Thread Starter
#26  
Z-Michihan...
A couple of posts back, you mentioned HP, Torque and RPM's reagarding a Dodge Ram/Hemi...assuming you ment Cummins Diesel??? Anyway, are there not at least a few vehicles in the North American market last or this year now that are running direct injected gas engines? I seem to recall hearing this a few times and thinking 'the times they are a changing'. I just can't recall what models or manufacturers they were.
 
   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #27  
Hiya,

GDi is not "new" tech. It started around the time of WW2 with Damlier. Benz and Bosch used a system in the 60's I think.

What the big difference is that those systems were mechanical, the new ones are electronic. The mechanical systems did not have the speed to have more than one crudely timed injection per combustion event, the new systems have the speed and the monitoring ability to control the complete combustion events with multiple varied injections. This is similar to what is now being done with Diesels, unlike the older mechanical systems in my '92 Dodge, the high speed solenoid injectors on the new engines inject several smaller amounts of fuel as the piston descends in the bore initiating multiple combustion events thereby burning more completely and providing maximum cylinder pressures for almost the entire power stroke.

But then again, the torque king is still steam or electricity, 100% of torque at zero movement.

"Steam, the original direct injection system" :D

My 2 cents,

Tom
 
   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #28  
Tom,

Steam is the king of torque. I saw an old picture of a 22 bottom plow pulled by a steam tractor the size of a locomotive. It had 3-4 guys running it. What was odd about the picture was the caption (from memory now) the tractor had only 50 HP. I thought, "what the?" and did a double take. The HP was 50 but the rpm was like 30 or some rediculous number. Calculating the torque gave over 8500 ft-lb of torque. Yikes! No wonder it could pull a 22 bottom plow!!

Z- the GDI systems actually give huge increases in torque at lower rpms. The HP gains are modest. The torque comes from multiple small injections that allow much higher average cylinder pressures, especially as the piston is down the hole. My thoughts were that the GDI systems either are pure compression ignited or that they only use a spark for starting. Either way, tech is taking over.

jb
 
   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #29  
john_bud said:
Tom,

Steam is the king of torque. I saw an old picture of a 22 bottom plow pulled by a steam tractor the size of a locomotive. It had 3-4 guys running it. What was odd about the picture was the caption (from memory now) the tractor had only 50 HP. I thought, "what the?" and did a double take. The HP was 50 but the rpm was like 30 or some rediculous number. Calculating the torque gave over 8500 ft-lb of torque. Yikes! No wonder it could pull a 22 bottom plow!!

Z- the GDI systems actually give huge increases in torque at lower rpms. The HP gains are modest. The torque comes from multiple small injections that allow much higher average cylinder pressures, especially as the piston is down the hole. My thoughts were that the GDI systems either are pure compression ignited or that they only use a spark for starting. Either way, tech is taking over.

jb

Randy Leffingwell's book "Caterpillar" shows a photo of a 1904 Best steam tractor rated at 110 hp pulling six 4-16 plow gangs. He says that the tractor was loafing with this load. Best Mfg. Co. San Leandro, CA.
 
   / tractor diesels vs. pickup diesels #30  
art said:
A way we look at them which actually came from an oil manufacturer is 30-60-90, An auto is 30 percent of power use all the time to get down the road. The truck is 60% all the time and a tractor is 90% all the time. These are not exact and do vary from time to time as we've seen engines rated for 10,000 hours go 18,000 hours in low stress or load situations.Think all oils are the same? Not! We get to see many engine failures from engines that are using truck or auto engine oil in the tractors. Normally they are well below or close to half the engines lives that have had the appropriate oil in them.

Somewhere I read the use of automobile energy: 30% consumed in heating the engine-30% goes out the tailpipe-30% to the rear wheels??
 

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