Trailer math

   / Trailer math #11  
As is you are at 17.555% of load transfered to the tongue which is 2,240#. If you want 1500# transfered to tongue weight you need11.755% of load on tougue. Axels are 3.8621 feet behind center of load. You need them at 2.5861 behind center of load. You need to move axels forward 1.276 feet.
Best I can do, someone else could confirm or not.

Original calculations show axles are 3.86 behind center of load (CG of trailer + load is 18.14 ft behind tongue). To balance the moments without changing the trailer + equipment configuration, the new axle sideview center would be 2.42 ft behind the CG to produce 1500# at the tongue.

The new axle load would be 11260#. so: [1500 * 18.138 - (10520 + 740) * X = 0. --> X = 2.416' (the new required position). You want to change the hitch load from 2240 to 1500#. That extra weight (740#) now goes onto the axles.

This means moving the axles fwd 1.45 ft.
 
   / Trailer math #12  
What kind of 3/4 ton truck can't handle that kind of tongue weight on a goose neck? I have never had a 3/4 ton truck, but my ton truck hardly notices that amount of tongue weight.
 
   / Trailer math #13  
I believe he's worried about the DOT dinging him for exceeding the gvwr.

I would check into how dot looks at it before you change the axles, when I had a small trucking company all the scales cared about was that your overall gross weight and individual axle weights weren't exceeded.
 
   / Trailer math
  • Thread Starter
#15  
I'm thinking it might be easier to unweld the equipment and move it back a few inches instead of moving the axels.

As it is the equipment already hangs off the back of the trailer about 2'. It is just nose heavy. It is as far back as it can go. The only reasonable solution is to reposition the axles.
 
   / Trailer math #16  
I also get 1.45' needed to move forward. (I love these math problems)

As is you are at 17.555% of load transfered to the tongue which is 2,240#. If you want 1500# transfered to tongue weight you need11.755% of load on tougue. Axels are 3.8621 feet behind center of load.

You were right up to this point. From here, 22' - 3.861' = 18.14' behind the pin is where the COG is.

To get 11.755% of the total 12,760# on the tongue, 11.755% of the length needs to be behind the COG......meaning 88.25% needs to be forward of the COG. Totalling 100%....but we dont know what that "new" 100% for length is just yet.

You need them at 2.5861 behind center of load. You need to move axels forward 1.276 feet.

You went wrong figuring 11.755% of 22'. But remember, 22' is the OLD length. And we dont know the new length yet.

So, with the COG at 18.14' and that represents 88.25% of the total "new" length, And you get 20.55' total length that it needs to be.

22-20.55 = 1.45' forward.

Hope you could follow that. I didnt figure it in percentage initially when I came up with 1.45', so had to figure again to see where you strayed.
 
   / Trailer math #17  
I was considering going to a gooseneck and while looking at them it seems the axles are farther back than a bumper pull, which would make a heavier tongue weight. So if a 3/4 ton truck is supposed to carry 1500lbs in the bed, isn't it overloaded at #2200 lbs? And if so, why would they make the axles farther back on a gooseneck?
 
   / Trailer math #18  
And if so, why would they make the axles farther back on a gooseneck?

GN trailers have a longer tongue (since it hooks OVER the axle.) So its a leverage thing. The farther the tongue is away from the load, the less weight it is gonna have on it.

A BP trailer has a short tongue in comparison. So it "feels" more weight. So the axles cannot be too far back. Further more, being hooked to the bumper, leverage again over the truck. 1000# on the bumper is gonna squat the truck and "feel" alot heavier than 1000# on a pin over the axle
 
   / Trailer math #19  
I was considering going to a gooseneck and while looking at them it seems the axles are farther back than a bumper pull, which would make a heavier tongue weight. So if a 3/4 ton truck is supposed to carry 1500lbs in the bed, isn't it overloaded at #2200 lbs? And if so, why would they make the axles farther back on a gooseneck?

Most 3/4 ton trucks just aren't big enough for a gooseneck except the smallest ones. A gn rides better and handles weight better than a BP. they also take advantage of putting the tongue weight right over the axle of the truck so they behave more like a semi trailer that tends to split the weight more evenly between the trailer and the tractor. I really prefer to get as close to or over the 25% rule of thumb if my load allows it. I can't get enough tongue weight on my truck now and that's how I like it. Even when hauling hay I drop 2 round bales on the bed of the truck and hook the trailer up behind it with 2 rows high.
 
   / Trailer math #20  
OK. So the OP's question is basically answered so let me point out a couple of interesting (to some) facts about the gooseneck setup.

1) Since the hitch point is within the wheelbase, the trailer tongue load is felt as a load increase at the rear AND front wheels. With a BP trailer, hitch load increases the rear tire loads but decreases the front tire loads unless a load equalizing hitch is used. LE hitch attachment points have to be sturdy because the bending moment necessary to level the trailer and the tow vehicle is VERY large. Body/frame structure is not always 'there' to hold this bending moment. Also, because the front and rear tires both get increased loads, tire properties (cornering stiffnesses) on the axle are less different. So, the GN tow vehicle looses less designed in understeer, has less of a change in the steering gain, has better high speed stability and faster response times than with a BP trailer. Ever see a tow vehicle with its front wheels almost off the ground ? Suspension geometry is also less affected, especially at the front (steered ) axle.

2) Since the hitch point is ahead of the rear axle, turning response at high speed is also much better with a GN because the tongue initially moves in the direction of the turn instead of away from the turn, as with a BP hitch. This is especially appreciated when stopping and turning at the same time because the jacknife forces are stabilizing instead of de-stabilizing. Not to say that a jacknife won't happen, but is much less likely. If the decel is so large that the rear tires loose their sidegrip, your're gonna loose it. The hitch ball height above the ground is also a significant factor in improving the high speed handling because the trailer roll axis is angled upward in the side view.

3) The backing up task is much more natural because the tow angle gain (tow vehicle centerline to tongue) vs. steer angle is lower and has a positive sign. You don't have to turn the tow vehicle very much in the 'wrong' direction' before the trailer starts its arc. The tendency to have a longer tongue also plays into this. The use of GN horse trailers proves this advantage. Less experienced horse people (females) generally get the hang of backing up a GN horse show deal with very little practice. Because of the down the road dynamics of the GN horse trailer, the ride and handling features are also very much appreciated BY THE HORSES !!

4) It should go without saying that being able to See the hitch to ball connection when hooking up is one to save a lot of cuss words for better use.

Just to mention, there have been cool designs for a so-called 'shadow trailer'. This uses the roof centerline as a hitch point. It's most notable feature is the ability to turn the tow vehicle around within the tongue radius. So, if your backing up skills are still not so great, then just push it backwards while facing the direction you want to go. Popular with the boat launch folks when trying to retrieve a boat from a ramp when the low trailer is hardly visible, there is a long line of folks waiting to retrieve their yachts, there's been heavy drinking on the water, everybody is sun burned, and Momma is itching to get out of her wet suit.

A company used to pay me big dollars to analyze this kind of stuff. Its paid off in a happy and comfortable retirement.

Be safe out there !
 

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