Train - hazardous cargo "accident"

[Cub 7274]

Yes they need rail to be competitive but if they have to rely on CN or CP no doubt they will close as the two big RR's in Canada have been doing this since the early 90's telling industry we dont want you and up come the tracks MMA no doubt saved those jobs in Quebec but they didnt haul oil either.
There is a Shortline that operates here in the Niagara region and it barely survives with the track and customers that CN left them and they will never have crude oil trains to pad their wallets I bet they dont have $10 million in insurance and they have a customer that uses 1 or 2 cars of Acid a week

 

[Scooby074]

What IS the right amount of insurance? Before this, the worst most people would have imagined happening to train loaded with crude oil is a major spill. I'm not saying $25 million is enough, but without the benefit of hindsight, should they have had $50 million, $100 million etc? The reality is, $1 billion wouldn't be enough to cover all claims in this accident, and a few months ago, nobody would have thought that was a reasonable level to have to carry.

I dont know what the correct number is, but I guarantee it is a heck of a lot more than $25,000,000. $250 Million as a minimum maybe.

The feds just raised the required insurance for the offshore oil industry from a mere $30 million to $1 Billion a couple months ago. They also want Embridge to carry $1 Billion if the west coast pipeline goes ahead. The BP Mercado GoM spill cleanup is well over $40Billion now. Canada raises liability for offshore oil spills to $1-billion - The Globe and Mail

$25 Million is a pittance in a serious accident like Lac Megantic.

 

[3930dave]

I dont know what the correct number is, but I guarantee it is a heck of a lot more than $25,000,000. $250 Million as a minimum maybe.

The feds just raised the required insurance for the offshore oil industry from a mere $30 million to $1 Billion a couple months ago. They also want Embridge to carry $1 Billion if the west coast pipeline goes ahead. The BP Mercado GoM spill cleanup is well over $40Billion now. Canada raises liability for offshore oil spills to $1-billion - The Globe and Mail

$25 Million is a pittance in a serious accident like Lac Megantic.

Any proper actuarial study of rail would have likely hit $250MM easily, once all the environmental cleanup was tallied. Contaminate a major water source - what is it going to cost to haul drinking water for a whole city, until the water is deemed safe ?

Yes, even $1B may not cover the Super Cat events, but in this case it would have provided $975 million of coverage that didn't have to come out of the taxpayers pockets.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Yes they need rail to be competitive but if they have to rely on CN or CP no doubt they will close as the two big RR's in Canada have been doing this since the early 90's telling industry we dont want you and up come the tracks MMA no doubt saved those jobs in Quebec but they didnt haul oil either.
There is a Shortline that operates here in the Niagara region and it barely survives with the track and customers that CN left them and they will never have crude oil trains to pad their wallets I bet they dont have $10 million in insurance and they have a customer that uses 1 or 2 cars of Acid a week

Not a bad strategy.... if you are trying to eliminate what little manufacturing you have left, and also devolve the country to 2'nd world status. :banghead:

Rgds, D.

 

[dave1949]

Looking at the rail service situation from the global company's viewpoint that owns the chipboard plant in Lac Megantic; the largest chipboard plant in North America can't get reliable rail service? It has a certain Third-World flavor to it.

I don't aim this at Can., we are just as hapless in Maine, USA.

 

[3930dave]

Looking at the rail service situation from the global company's viewpoint that owns the chipboard plant in Lac Megantic; the largest chipboard plant in North America can't get reliable rail service? It has a certain Third-World flavor to it.

I don't aim this at Can., we are just as hapless in Maine, USA.

I don't have a problem with you aiming that comment at Canada Dave, I think it is deserved. I choose the "2'nd" world designation to not belittle the actual problems in the 3'rd world, but still remind us what slope we are sliding down.

I'll aim this one at Canada too - of the G8 why is that only Germany has it's act together on Manufacturing ?

At this rate, we Canucks can't even claim to "Hew Wood" competitively !

Rgds, D.

 

[dave1949]

I don't have a problem with you aiming that comment at Canada Dave, I think it is deserved. I choose the "2'nd" world designation to not belittle the actual problems in the 3'rd world, but still remind us what slope we are sliding down.

I'll aim this one at Canada too - of the G8 why is that only Germany has it's act together on Manufacturing ?

At this rate, we Canucks can't even claim to "Hew Wood" competitively !

Rgds, D.

Re: Germany.

Relative social cohesiveness (perhaps a greater appreciation of the common good), an education system that leverages academic excellence (separating college-bound from others early in high school), and respect for employees, knowledge and expertise, go a long ways as foundation blocks for achievement.

Can't speak about Canada on these issues, but the US has deficits in all those useful characteristics. I think Germany is losing some strength in those areas, but remain comparatively strong. Consider that in Germany manufacturing is highly unionized, but they manage to pull on the oars together. Employer-employee relationships there are less adversarial than here. German industrial firms put a lot of effort and expense into developing in-house talent.

 

[3930dave]

Re: Germany.

Relative social cohesiveness (perhaps a greater appreciation of the common good), an education system that leverages academic excellence (separating college-bound from others early in high school), and respect for employees, knowledge and expertise, go a long ways as foundation blocks for achievement.

Can't speak about Canada on these issues, but the US has deficits in all those useful characteristics. I think Germany is losing some strength in those areas, but remain comparatively strong. Consider that in Germany manufacturing is highly unionized, but they manage to pull on the oars together. Employer-employee relationships there are less adversarial than here. German industrial firms put a lot of effort and expense into developing in-house talent.

While Germany is not without problems in the workplace and business sectors, I'd say you've summarized their climate well. "Relative social cohesiveness" covers a lot of ground, and is probably central to their success - it shows up in the long term and strategic policies of their government sector.

If not a declared war, there are typically major skirmishes ongoing between Canadian labour, companies, and the various levels of government.

I can't see the Germans leaving a major factory stranded at the end of a rickety rail line.

Rgds, D.

 

[dave1949]

While Germany is not without problems in the workplace and business sectors, I'd say you've summarized their climate well. "Relative social cohesiveness" covers a lot of ground, and is probably central to their success - it shows up in the long term and strategic policies of their government sector.

If not a declared war, there are typically major skirmishes ongoing between Canadian labour, companies, and the various levels of government.

I can't see the Germans leaving a major factory stranded at the end of a rickety rail line.

Rgds, D.

Hey, when you are drinking good beer and listening to oompah bands, it's easier to get along. :laughing:

I am losing touch with current events in Germany, but I lived there 1985-94. Had some great times, great friends, and it was interesting to note the cultural differences.

Considering the German economy and society has been through some major adjustments like the NATO and US military draw downs, and the reunification of East & West Germany, they are doing pretty well.

I often had an odd sense that being in Germany at that time period was like time warping back to the 1950's in the US as far as social attitudes were concerned. The W. Germans had a strong sense of what being German meant, respected knowledge and effort, tended to be less publicly vocal (rabid? :laughing in their opinions and criticisms of others. Nothing stays the same, so I would bet they are becoming more like us than not.

Our challenges, like the rise of corporatism and cultural divergence are going to take awhile to get past. The train wreck is an example of corporatism. Decisions are made based solely on what is most profitable for a corporation, not what is most reasonable/best/safe for society as a whole.

 

[3930dave]

Hey, when you are drinking good beer and listening to oompah bands, it's easier to get along. :laughing:

I am losing touch with current events in Germany, but I lived there 1985-94. Had some great times, great friends, and it was interesting to note the cultural differences.

Considering the German economy and society has been through some major adjustments like the NATO and US military draw downs, and the reunification of East & West Germany, they are doing pretty well.

I often had an odd sense that being in Germany at that time period was like time warping back to the 1950's in the US as far as social attitudes were concerned. The W. Germans had a strong sense of what being German meant, respected knowledge and effort, tended to be less publicly vocal (rabid? :laughing in their opinions and criticisms of others. Nothing stays the same, so I would bet they are becoming more like us than not.

Our challenges, like the rise of corporatism and cultural divergence are going to take awhile to get past. The train wreck is an example of corporatism. Decisions are made based solely on what is most profitable for a corporation, not what is most reasonable/best/safe for society as a whole.

That would have been an interesting time to live in Germany.... quite the changes going on.

Ever drive a Trabant ? Looks like they would have been good for mosquito suppression !

I remember seeing an interview with a famous US reporter (name escapes me at the moment) at a journalism school, who used the following situation to make a point about really understanding what is going on, before airing a broadcast.

The Berlin Wall was coming down, and there was a tall guy in a trenchcoat, standing on top off the wall. Security was trying to discourage people from getting on top of the wall (just general safety reasons), so they were spraying him with a firehose. Big guy, they couldn't knock him down, at least at the pressure setting chosen.

The famous reporter was getting all excited about getting this iconic video clip on air, when his producer rushed up to him at the last minute "The guy is a homeless drunk, and hasn't had a shower in a month - he's just enjoying the free shower !"

Sometimes it takes a while to get the real story.... but I think we agree that we are long past that stage with corporatism.

The last sentence in your post is part of why I came to use the term CorporateGovernment.

The order of the 2 terms conveys precedence.

Rgds, D.

 

[dave1949]

That would have been an interesting time to live in Germany.... quite the changes going on.

Ever drive a Trabant ? Looks like they would have been good for mosquito suppression !

I remember seeing an interview with a famous US reporter (name escapes me at the moment) at a journalism school, who used the following situation to make a point about really understanding what is going on, before airing a broadcast.

The Berlin Wall was coming down, and there was a tall guy in a trenchcoat, standing on top off the wall. Security was trying to discourage people from getting on top of the wall (just general safety reasons), so they were spraying him with a firehose. Big guy, they couldn't knock him down, at least at the pressure setting chosen.

The famous reporter was getting all excited about getting this iconic video clip on air, when his producer rushed up to him at the last minute "The guy is a homeless drunk, and hasn't had a shower in a month - he's just enjoying the free shower !"

Sometimes it takes a while to get the real story.... but I think we agree that we are long past that stage with corporatism.

The last sentence in your post is part of why I came to use the term CorporateGovernment.

The order of the 2 terms conveys precedence.

Rgds, D.

Never drove a "Trabbi". I'd see/smell/hear one now and then but they weren't considered "real" cars in the West. Probably a collectors item now just for the history they represent.

I drove a plain jane VW Golf, we had a VW Jetta for several years, then my wife decided she needed something sportier and traded the Jetta on a VW Golf GTI, which I admit was fun to drive.

I still have a chunk of concrete from the Berlin Wall. The Wall coming down was a time of celebration more than anything. There were stories of East Germans going grocery shopping for the first time in the West that had tears in their eyes, just couldn't believe the choices and quality. And, stories of West Germans scooping up antiques in the East from people who had no idea of their value.

As a description, CorporateGovernment works for me.

 

[crazyal]

It's all about balance. What would $1 billion worth of insurance cost MMA? I bet the line wouldn't of been profitable. That means that all the companies that need that line to survive wouldn't be there. That means all those people who live along the line, not just the ones who work for those companies but also the businesses and their employees who count on the direct workers to spend their checks locally and the direct businesses to hire other local companies.

I'm not sure if any of you have been to Lac Megantic, I have. It's a very nice town. I don't have a great understanding of it's economic base, it looked like it was based off of the rail line and the lake. As it is how many mortgages, auto, boat, atv, etc loans will be defaulted on because of workers not having work? How many dealerships are on the brink? I fear the larger damage to the town will be if the line isn't opened back up and Lac Megantic becomes just another a ghost town.

 

[3930dave]

As I said in a previous post "Mostly, what does or does not happen gets determined on Bay or Wall Street."

Persons of Wealth typically don't get held accountable, for anything.

Repeating myself, my second level of thought was towards all the working class people affected by this pre-obfuscated disaster. Everybody left alive needs to eat.

If I take out a billion dollars on a policy to insure my trip to Pluto, what is it going to cost me ? Probability (of the trip ever happening) would dictate a low premium.

Super Catastrophe insurance is based on many things, but in the case of rail transport one should be able to assume that basic maintenance is being done on both the rolling stock, and the track.

By not inspecting (in any meaningful way) the equipment or the line, AND allowing MMA to run with a joke level of insurance, it's pretty hard to argue that the Canadian government didn't have a significant role in allowing this disaster to happen.

Just try insuring a house today with a new policy.... you get run through the hoops to make sure all the maintenance and systems are up to date and code.

Not far back in time, we had a national rail system, that somehow all got paid for and ran effectively on a much lower tax base and rate.

Now, we have sky-high taxes, and most everything is privatized.

To justify keeping factories open, we are expected to just drink the Kool-Aid, and tolerate 3'rd World level operating conditions and disasters - just because the 1%'ers aren't content owning only 6 vacation estates ?

If we are going to do this, let's do this right. Let's take all the controls off, and let the trucks run down the highways we have to use, with zero inspections. That way, the truckers can have that all important "level playing field" that is always trotted out.

Rgds, D.

 

[crazyal]

As I said, it's all about balance.

 

[3930dave]

As I said, it's all about balance.

Despite appearing unbalanced in my rantings, I mostly don't disagree with you Al.

The balance is out of whack.

Maybe not all, but most of the freight being hauled on these short lines goes on to travel on major lines. So, the majors get to profit directly from freight being hauled on these 3'rd World short line tracks. The majors assume the profits, we (the taxpayers, and the towns/cities on these lines) assume the risk.

Nice work, if you can get it.

Rgds, D.

 

[bcp]

From:
Canadian Pacific - Canadian Transportation Agency Orders CP to interchange traffic with Montreal Maine & Atlantic Railway

...
On August 13, 2013, CP issued an embargo regulating the interchange of all traffic to and from the MM&A. This was in response to the same-day decision by the CTA to withdraw MM&A's certificate of fitness. The CTA's decision suspended MM&A's ability to operate a railway.
...
"While we disagree with this order, we have taken immediate steps to comply, said E. Hunter Harrison, Canadian Pacific Chief Executive Officer. "The CTA, as federal regulator, has satisfied itself that MM&A is fit to operate and has adequate insurance to do so. We will review our legal options."

 

[3930dave]

From:
Canadian Pacific - Canadian Transportation Agency Orders CP to interchange traffic with Montreal Maine & Atlantic Railway

...
On August 13, 2013, CP issued an embargo regulating the interchange of all traffic to and from the MM&A. This was in response to the same-day decision by the CTA to withdraw MM&A's certificate of fitness. The CTA's decision suspended MM&A's ability to operate a railway.
...
"While we disagree with this order, we have taken immediate steps to comply, said E. Hunter Harrison, Canadian Pacific Chief Executive Officer. "The CTA, as federal regulator, has satisfied itself that MM&A is fit to operate and has adequate insurance to do so. We will review our legal options."

As I've said before..... to get to the top of this kind of heap, it is really helpful to be totally amoral.

Absolutely disgusting (meaning CTA, Harrison doesn't appear to have any other options).

Rgds, D.

 

[Cub 7274]

The bad thing is Harrison is one of the reasons for rail decay
But he made lots of money for the shareholder and thats all that matters"the bottom line"

 

[3930dave]

Sometimes I think the gubmint and CEO meetings mostly revolve around how to alibi each other.

Plausible Denial - I dont' think any 1%'ers missed those lectures...

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Back to business as usual....

Yahoo News Canada - Latest News & Headlines

Rgds, D.