Trescrows, Defender of the BX, Request
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TresCrows
Elite Member
I will give you my answer here so as not to interrupt the other thread.
Price, because the BX is a diesel and made by a company with a long history and name recognition and excellent resale--advantage BX.
Mowing, I suspect the BX suspended deck will out perform handily the ground contact type used by the PT. It will ride smoothly even over raggedy terrain--advantage BX
FEL, the loader is smooth and more than powerful enough for home owner use and accomponied by the diff lock and joy stick control I give the BX a qualified advantage.
More than one implement---yep, the BX can mount the FEL and a boxblade at the same time and it is extremely useful in that configuration. It is also neat to be able to use the MMM mounted and something like a Herd M-96 spreader at the same time or an aerator or pull spreader or lot's of other things. I suspect the BX has more traction and available power than the 425. Advantage BX
Engines--no comparison, a diesel engine by Kubota or a gas engine by a water faucet company--no brainer here--Kubota BX advantage!!!!!!!!!!!
Three point implements--much to discuss here but mostly the diffuculty of dealing with them is much over stated in my opinion. Implements would only be useful for a larger tractor if you traded up to a 7500, 2410, JD4100 etc.
Ride would be about the same--tie
Ergonomics--I cannot say except I find the BX reasonably comfortable for a small tractor.
BX is the winner but that is for me, the PT concept is solid as is the machine I understand.
J
Price, because the BX is a diesel and made by a company with a long history and name recognition and excellent resale--advantage BX.
Mowing, I suspect the BX suspended deck will out perform handily the ground contact type used by the PT. It will ride smoothly even over raggedy terrain--advantage BX
FEL, the loader is smooth and more than powerful enough for home owner use and accomponied by the diff lock and joy stick control I give the BX a qualified advantage.
More than one implement---yep, the BX can mount the FEL and a boxblade at the same time and it is extremely useful in that configuration. It is also neat to be able to use the MMM mounted and something like a Herd M-96 spreader at the same time or an aerator or pull spreader or lot's of other things. I suspect the BX has more traction and available power than the 425. Advantage BX
Engines--no comparison, a diesel engine by Kubota or a gas engine by a water faucet company--no brainer here--Kubota BX advantage!!!!!!!!!!!
Three point implements--much to discuss here but mostly the diffuculty of dealing with them is much over stated in my opinion. Implements would only be useful for a larger tractor if you traded up to a 7500, 2410, JD4100 etc.
Ride would be about the same--tie
Ergonomics--I cannot say except I find the BX reasonably comfortable for a small tractor.
BX is the winner but that is for me, the PT concept is solid as is the machine I understand.
J
OP
marrt
Platinum Member
Trescrows, Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
Charlie_Iliff
Veteran Member
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Marrt:
Now that you have lengthy, well-reasoned, and totallly unbiased analyses from TresCrows and a number of PT owners, I assume that your decision has been made much easier. Of course, you may have noted that most preferences, except Bubenberg's, had some statement like "I assume mine will work better ..."
If your tractor use is like most of us, mowing will be a substantial percentage. TresCrows asserts his assumption that the BX "suspended" deck will outperform the "ground contact" deck of the PT. On that issue, I think I can speak without any assumption at all. We have worn several sets of gauge wheels/anti-scalp rollers off a 44" deck on a Cub Cadet, and 60" decks on a JD 755 and Kubota B7100 HST, all hydrostatic with "suspended" belly decks. We have five or six operators of varying ages and genders. If you ask any of them, the front mounted "ground contact" mower on the old Jacobsen Turf Cat II not only does a better job on all surfaces than the belly mowers, but also is easier to position, more maneuverable, and capable of reaching into corners, under bushes and over banks that are inaccessible to belly mowers. I may some day buy a ZTR, but I will resist even spending for parts to maintain the belly mowers - all of which we still have. Front mowers are simply better. I think the Power Trac owners will accept any competition the BX guys suggest regarding the mower, and will win.
Diesel is a religion, not a power source. It is always a useless exercise to argue against it. People want it because they do, and will believe it lasts longer, burns less, etc. whether it's a 500 RPM Gardiner or a 3500 RPM new lightweight. The fact that the cost over the lifetime of a machine of an equivalent power gas engine is cheaper is irrelevant. (A neighbor of mine just replaced two perfectly good 350 Chev boat engines with new diesels. He'll have to go more than twice around the world to make up in fuel savings what he put into the change, and by then, he'll have to replace the engines at least once and start the process over. I stayed with my 14 year old gas 350 Chev., which hasn't missed a lick yet. My neighbor understands he will never make the money back, but he's delighted that he changed to diesels) Someone argued that diesel fuel is safer to store. Since we all store it right next to the gasoline for the string trimmer, chain saw, and little lawnmower, I'm not sure I follow that. But if you're looking for an accelerant for setting fires, gasoline gives a bigger "whoosh" and diesel spreads the fire more widely. If you get them lit, neither will do their surroundings much good.
Most of our tractors, and my Power Trac, are diesel, so I certainly can't say I prefer gasoline. If diesel's your major bias, get the BX and you can join the ranks of diesel garden tractor, er, subCUT owners. If you want the flexibility and wide capability of a quick change implement carrier, and undisputably superior mowing, get the PT. Either way will be fun.
And Kohler makes pretty good faucets.
Now that you have lengthy, well-reasoned, and totallly unbiased analyses from TresCrows and a number of PT owners, I assume that your decision has been made much easier. Of course, you may have noted that most preferences, except Bubenberg's, had some statement like "I assume mine will work better ..."
If your tractor use is like most of us, mowing will be a substantial percentage. TresCrows asserts his assumption that the BX "suspended" deck will outperform the "ground contact" deck of the PT. On that issue, I think I can speak without any assumption at all. We have worn several sets of gauge wheels/anti-scalp rollers off a 44" deck on a Cub Cadet, and 60" decks on a JD 755 and Kubota B7100 HST, all hydrostatic with "suspended" belly decks. We have five or six operators of varying ages and genders. If you ask any of them, the front mounted "ground contact" mower on the old Jacobsen Turf Cat II not only does a better job on all surfaces than the belly mowers, but also is easier to position, more maneuverable, and capable of reaching into corners, under bushes and over banks that are inaccessible to belly mowers. I may some day buy a ZTR, but I will resist even spending for parts to maintain the belly mowers - all of which we still have. Front mowers are simply better. I think the Power Trac owners will accept any competition the BX guys suggest regarding the mower, and will win.
Diesel is a religion, not a power source. It is always a useless exercise to argue against it. People want it because they do, and will believe it lasts longer, burns less, etc. whether it's a 500 RPM Gardiner or a 3500 RPM new lightweight. The fact that the cost over the lifetime of a machine of an equivalent power gas engine is cheaper is irrelevant. (A neighbor of mine just replaced two perfectly good 350 Chev boat engines with new diesels. He'll have to go more than twice around the world to make up in fuel savings what he put into the change, and by then, he'll have to replace the engines at least once and start the process over. I stayed with my 14 year old gas 350 Chev., which hasn't missed a lick yet. My neighbor understands he will never make the money back, but he's delighted that he changed to diesels) Someone argued that diesel fuel is safer to store. Since we all store it right next to the gasoline for the string trimmer, chain saw, and little lawnmower, I'm not sure I follow that. But if you're looking for an accelerant for setting fires, gasoline gives a bigger "whoosh" and diesel spreads the fire more widely. If you get them lit, neither will do their surroundings much good.
Most of our tractors, and my Power Trac, are diesel, so I certainly can't say I prefer gasoline. If diesel's your major bias, get the BX and you can join the ranks of diesel garden tractor, er, subCUT owners. If you want the flexibility and wide capability of a quick change implement carrier, and undisputably superior mowing, get the PT. Either way will be fun.
And Kohler makes pretty good faucets.
TresCrows
Elite Member
Charlie, "unbiased" is a cliche. All opinions are biased and most of what is presented here on TBN and everywhere else will alawys be colored by a persons opinion, preference and individual needs. I never said I was unbiased--I am not! He asked for my thoughts and I gave them to him. I read through the discussion mentioned and gleaned that he was concerned about mowing rough ground--as in rough lawn----I believe, assume, know, whatever, that a suspended deck will perform better in that condition. I would rather not have the deck clunking along on the ground under that condition--the worn out wheels among other things you mention. I think on a normal lawn area this would not be a problem with the PT wheeled mower and so the advantage would dimenish.
Diesel religion?, could be but the question again from the conversation was about a Kohler powered version of the PT and I do not think much of Kohler engines. If the engine was a 3 cylinder, liquid cooled and injected gasoline engine (made by Kubota, Kawasaki, Honda and even Briggs--if they make such things) I would again say that the advantage of the BX would be greatly reduced if not completely gone---- but it was a Kohler and I don't want no stinking Kohler and that is my OPINION based on my experience, needs, biases.
This is exactly why I let my answer remain here instead of the other brands thread so as not to start a flame thread. The PT is an excellent unit and it's owners seem very pleased with them and I have stated that several times----I was asked about my thoughts-----I (I, I as in ME, Myself) don't want one.
J, biased
Diesel religion?, could be but the question again from the conversation was about a Kohler powered version of the PT and I do not think much of Kohler engines. If the engine was a 3 cylinder, liquid cooled and injected gasoline engine (made by Kubota, Kawasaki, Honda and even Briggs--if they make such things) I would again say that the advantage of the BX would be greatly reduced if not completely gone---- but it was a Kohler and I don't want no stinking Kohler and that is my OPINION based on my experience, needs, biases.
This is exactly why I let my answer remain here instead of the other brands thread so as not to start a flame thread. The PT is an excellent unit and it's owners seem very pleased with them and I have stated that several times----I was asked about my thoughts-----I (I, I as in ME, Myself) don't want one.
J, biased
Gomez
Gold Member
<font color=blue>Diesel is a religion, not a power source. It is always a useless exercise to argue against it. People want it because they do, and will believe it lasts longer, burns less, etc. whether it's a 500 RPM Gardiner or a 3500 RPM new lightweight.</font color=blue>
Are you saying that a diesel doesn't last longer or burn less fuel?
<font color=blue>The fact that the cost over the lifetime of a machine of an equivalent power gas engine is cheaper is irrelevant.</font color=blue>
This is a fact?
Are you saying that a diesel doesn't last longer or burn less fuel?
<font color=blue>The fact that the cost over the lifetime of a machine of an equivalent power gas engine is cheaper is irrelevant.</font color=blue>
This is a fact?
Charlie_Iliff
Veteran Member
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JR
I should have put a smiley face next to the "unbiased." It was meant to be ironic, not serious. Of course we're all biased, and our opinions are skewed not only by experience but by the need to defend our own choices. In addition, our opinions are driven a bit by our desire to tweak and tease each other on the TBN board. I meant no flame, and didn't read yours to be flame either. You have been the leading proponent of the BX for a while, and have convinced all of us that it is a good machine, first, and a lot more capable than a garden tractor, second. It with that realization that I undertook to tease a bit, not to flame in any negative way.
Kohlers certainly have a mixed reputation, particularly after a bad run a few years ago, but some people swear by them, others at them. I have two liquid cooled Kubota diesels, one on the B7100, and one on the Jacobsen, as well as a 16 hp Briggs on a 30 year old Cub Cadet. All have given me superior service. My PT diesel is a Deutz, which is air/oil cooled, which has its own advantages and drawbacks. Our JD 755 diesel is showing signs of problems after a complete rebuild to the tune of $3800 five years ago. My point was only that a gasoline engine is cheaper to buy and cheaper to replace, so in the long run probably cheaper than an equal power diesel over the life of the machine. (Cheaper of course on resale, as well.) Some people just prefer diesel, to the degree that they simply won't consider anything else, thus the religion crack. (I think JMIII and others recently warned against that sort of comment, but it seemed a good idea at the time.)
A number of people have asked Power Trac to put a small diesel on the 400 series frame. If they did so, I think there would be buyers, but it would probably be a couple of thousand dollars more expensive. MossRoad likes gas engines better. I actually like both.
My first response to the PT vs BX inquiry was a recommendation to buy them both. That's still the only way to get the best points of each. I have a B7100 which hasn't been used since the PT arrived, but that isn't really a fair comparison , since the PT is an 1845, and the B7100 doesn't have an FEL
Where I suspect we simply won't agree is on the mower. I haven't used a BX, but our Jacobsen and now PT front mowers are better than the three mid-mounts on rough or smooth ground. There is some rattle, of course, but there is on the mid-mount as well if you properly set the guide wheels and anti-scalp rollers to prevent uneven cut and scalping. They are designed to hit the ground, rather than rolling on it all the time, and on rough stuff will bounce, sometimes pretty noisily.
Where the BX wins hands down is the ability to use the box blade and bucket simultaneously. I not very skilled with grading stuff, but with the PT, I can only do one thing at a time. I can, however, switch from a bucket to grader blade, or to a hoe in less than a minute. Or in the same time I can swith to a post hole auger and drill holes out in front of the machine, with down pressure, and the ability to position easily side to side by merely turning the wheel.
I think it will be hard to go wrong with either the BX or the PT. But, as said above, the real answer is to get both. Then Marrt can hook them back to back and tell us which one has more traction. I think you and I would have to have a bunch of negotiation sessions about the rules first, though, just to keep things fair./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
I should have put a smiley face next to the "unbiased." It was meant to be ironic, not serious. Of course we're all biased, and our opinions are skewed not only by experience but by the need to defend our own choices. In addition, our opinions are driven a bit by our desire to tweak and tease each other on the TBN board. I meant no flame, and didn't read yours to be flame either. You have been the leading proponent of the BX for a while, and have convinced all of us that it is a good machine, first, and a lot more capable than a garden tractor, second. It with that realization that I undertook to tease a bit, not to flame in any negative way.
Kohlers certainly have a mixed reputation, particularly after a bad run a few years ago, but some people swear by them, others at them. I have two liquid cooled Kubota diesels, one on the B7100, and one on the Jacobsen, as well as a 16 hp Briggs on a 30 year old Cub Cadet. All have given me superior service. My PT diesel is a Deutz, which is air/oil cooled, which has its own advantages and drawbacks. Our JD 755 diesel is showing signs of problems after a complete rebuild to the tune of $3800 five years ago. My point was only that a gasoline engine is cheaper to buy and cheaper to replace, so in the long run probably cheaper than an equal power diesel over the life of the machine. (Cheaper of course on resale, as well.) Some people just prefer diesel, to the degree that they simply won't consider anything else, thus the religion crack. (I think JMIII and others recently warned against that sort of comment, but it seemed a good idea at the time.)
A number of people have asked Power Trac to put a small diesel on the 400 series frame. If they did so, I think there would be buyers, but it would probably be a couple of thousand dollars more expensive. MossRoad likes gas engines better. I actually like both.
My first response to the PT vs BX inquiry was a recommendation to buy them both. That's still the only way to get the best points of each. I have a B7100 which hasn't been used since the PT arrived, but that isn't really a fair comparison , since the PT is an 1845, and the B7100 doesn't have an FEL
Where I suspect we simply won't agree is on the mower. I haven't used a BX, but our Jacobsen and now PT front mowers are better than the three mid-mounts on rough or smooth ground. There is some rattle, of course, but there is on the mid-mount as well if you properly set the guide wheels and anti-scalp rollers to prevent uneven cut and scalping. They are designed to hit the ground, rather than rolling on it all the time, and on rough stuff will bounce, sometimes pretty noisily.
Where the BX wins hands down is the ability to use the box blade and bucket simultaneously. I not very skilled with grading stuff, but with the PT, I can only do one thing at a time. I can, however, switch from a bucket to grader blade, or to a hoe in less than a minute. Or in the same time I can swith to a post hole auger and drill holes out in front of the machine, with down pressure, and the ability to position easily side to side by merely turning the wheel.
I think it will be hard to go wrong with either the BX or the PT. But, as said above, the real answer is to get both. Then Marrt can hook them back to back and tell us which one has more traction. I think you and I would have to have a bunch of negotiation sessions about the rules first, though, just to keep things fair./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
dcollie
Member
Diesel is a religion? ahhh.....O.K.
<lessee...hmmmm> Average life of a Ford E350 14' Cube Van in my fleet with Ford V8 gas engine.... 100K miles. Cost new about $ 24K. Average Fuel mileage about 12 mpg.
Average life of the Isuzu NP$ 14' Van Body truck in my fleet is 300K miles. Cost new about $ 27K. Average fuel mileage about 14 mpg.
What is in the garage more? The Fords.
Guess what I buy for replacements?
-Duane C.
<lessee...hmmmm> Average life of a Ford E350 14' Cube Van in my fleet with Ford V8 gas engine.... 100K miles. Cost new about $ 24K. Average Fuel mileage about 12 mpg.
Average life of the Isuzu NP$ 14' Van Body truck in my fleet is 300K miles. Cost new about $ 27K. Average fuel mileage about 14 mpg.
What is in the garage more? The Fords.
Guess what I buy for replacements?
-Duane C.
JohnMiller3
Elite Member
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<font color=blue>...Guess what I buy for replacements?...</font color=blue>
Now if this was a blonde joke... the answer would be ...Chevy...! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Ok, ok so GM owns over half of Isuzu... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
I'm actually surprised the Ford gets 12 mpg (especially with a 14' box)... I'd figure 8-10 mpg from some friends units and experience...
Now if this was a blonde joke... the answer would be ...Chevy...! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Ok, ok so GM owns over half of Isuzu... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
I'm actually surprised the Ford gets 12 mpg (especially with a 14' box)... I'd figure 8-10 mpg from some friends units and experience...
upgw
Gold Member
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- 2001 Kubota BX2200, 2011 Hustler Super Z 31 Kawi
Actually, we 'diesel' folks just like the smell, the exhaust that is, not the fuel when it's spilled all over you! Diesel exhaust and cow manure, now that's livin'!
I've always liked the Kohlers, especially the ball-bearing supported crank models. Much tougher engine than either Techumseh (pure junk) or Briggs.
Air cooled engines don't last as long as water cooled engines. Gas engines don't last as long as diesles. Gas engines burn more fuel than diesels. Given all that, a gas engine may well be more economical. They are much cheaper to purchase, and give pretty good service. The water cooled models (e.g Kawasaki) are particularly good I hear. Clearly we have higher expectations of the diesel in a $10,000 Kubota versus a 25HP Kohler twin in a $2000 Craftsman. These are pretty impressive engines for the price.
If you keep the cooling fins clean (and that's a big if), an air cooled engine should give good service. Easy and cheap to rebuilt when they do wear out too...
- Patrick
I've always liked the Kohlers, especially the ball-bearing supported crank models. Much tougher engine than either Techumseh (pure junk) or Briggs.
Air cooled engines don't last as long as water cooled engines. Gas engines don't last as long as diesles. Gas engines burn more fuel than diesels. Given all that, a gas engine may well be more economical. They are much cheaper to purchase, and give pretty good service. The water cooled models (e.g Kawasaki) are particularly good I hear. Clearly we have higher expectations of the diesel in a $10,000 Kubota versus a 25HP Kohler twin in a $2000 Craftsman. These are pretty impressive engines for the price.
If you keep the cooling fins clean (and that's a big if), an air cooled engine should give good service. Easy and cheap to rebuilt when they do wear out too...
- Patrick
