Trouble after rolling

[AntrimMan]

Don't be hasty here.
There are likely to be at least 2 comp rings and 1 set of oil control rings on the piston. A solitary broken comp ring won't cause the smoke. The oil control rings (scrapers) are not likely to be damaged.
If the cylinder was loaded with oil and you cranked the engine then you might have bent a rod, damaged the piston crown or damaged the head gasket, all of which are capable of causing low compression and subsequent smoke. Oil is theoretically not compressible and will act as a solid if it can't escape somehow.
Diesel comp testers are available at Sears, Snap-on, Harbour Freight, Mac Tools, Pep Boys and others. If all else fails go to a car dealer and ask when the Tool truck comes by and meet it then. Try rental places also.
Borescope's are good for looking at the piston crown and bore walls but I don't think they fit your current needs.
Testing the compression is a good place to start eliminating causes since you have clean air filters in place. It all may be as simple as an oil puddle in the muffler or intake plenum.
This advise is good for twice what you paid for it and comes with a money back guarantee.
Best of luck,
Martin

 

[oliver28472]

The tractor, S470 Satoh Buck was my Dad's. Years ago, when he was still farming he had a not-so-smart employee drive the tractor from the farmstead to the house to mow. Dad said he told the guy to stay away from the road ditch. (narrow shoulder) The employee turned it over at the place Dad told him to stay away from. The engine suffered a bent rod. Sheet metal, radiator and steering wheel too. Engine was repaired, sheet metal banged out and radiator dobbed up. Probably less than a year later, Dad rolled it in the same place. This time the injectors were pulled when it was time to spin the engine over. It shot oil up on the side of the house. The last time, Dad rolled it again in the same place. This time, he was pinned under it until help arrived to get him out. An electric fence (barbed wire) was under Dad's rear end constantly reminding him how.. well, you know. A passing motorcycle saw his fingertips in the air and helped get the little tractor off. I don't remember any injuries in any of these rolls but I was either in college or had moved away. The tractor is mine now.

 

[PhilNH5]

Oliver28472,
Wow - Glad no one was seriously hurt. Thanks for replying.

Phil

 

[oliver28472]

I mowed at the scene of the crime yesterday using the grey Mitsubishi 1450. Stayed on 4 wheels. Buck is in the shed with the blade on.

 

[tdi1fun]

When you cranked it over with oil in a cylinder it may have cracked the block or if your lucky only ruined the head gasket. You are probably burning antifreeze that is leaking into a cylinder when it sits after being hot. Does your coolant level change at all? If you take off the radiator cap while it is running (better to take it off before you start it ) look for continuous stream of bubbles that would suggest head gasket or cracked head/block.
Hope this helps
JB

 

[Highbeam]

I flip engines over all the time /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif when riding motorcycles off raod and trying to beat the clock. Just flipping the engine isn't a problem, letting is sit there and allowing a liquid to fill the cylinder is a problem. Another problem, more likely in the motorcycle world, is getting in deep water and sucking the water into the intake and then into the engine. Oil, water, gasoline, diesel, will all have the effect of being impossible to compress much. But you have to get a decent amount in the cylinder to cause trouble.

If you suspect that there is a liquid in your cyclinder. The first thing to do is get a wrench and try to slowly turn the engine over by hand through two revolutions. On the bikes, we use the kickstart for this. I have turned my dozer's diesel engine over by hand this way but a higher copmpression engine may prove too difficult and the next step is to remove the injectors.

The last thing you want to do for fun is remove injectors. Try the easy stuff first.

If the smokey engine is the only symptom I would keep running it to burn off the oil. If you are gaining or loosing fluids anywhere else or if the fluids are being cross contaminated then I would take it in.

 

[skipmarcy]

A simple compression test will not confirm a broken ring, you have to do a cylinder leak-down test using the proper gauge assembly that uses compressed air to do the test. Then, from the results of this test it will narrow it down to a cracked ring or piston, or a head gasket that is blown in a compression area only. A simple compression test will only show a major breach in a piston assembly or a valve not closing all the way(for whatever reason) or possibly a severly bent rod that will decrease compression in a diesel, or a huge chunk of head gasket missing, and it has to be done correctly for the results to mean anything at all. A compression check or a leak-down check will not pinpoint the exact component at fault, the results will only tell you whether you need to tear into the engine or not, and then again, that's only if the tests are done correctly. I think I would carefully monitor all gauges and fluids, listen very closely and run the engine awhile to see if it straightens-out.If not, I strongly recommend letting a real pro diagnose it to save alot of headaches & money.

 

[AntrimMan]

It could be as simple as a puddle of oil...blah,blah,blah...
so how is your grandpa recovering (nicely we hope) and how are you making out with this engine smoke? Enquiring minds wish to know.
Wishing you and your's all the best,
grandpa Martin

 

[OffBalance]

Thanks for your concerns. I posted an update on Grandpa in the Safety forum.

I ran the tractor most of Saturday, while mowing. I put almost 6 hours on the hourmeter. It smoked quite a bit when starting cold. After that it, only smoked when pulling hard uphill. I wish I had before and after rollover videos for comparison. It was hard to see smoke when it was warm. Today, when I started it up, it again belched out lots of smoke, and continued smoking a lot until about the same time the temp gauge started registering. It runs at reduced RPMs while smoking, and is interspersed with little burps of higher RPM and less smoke. The burps become more frequent, until the higher RPMs are more common and the periods of low RPMs and smoke become shorter.

The smoke appears white when viewed against the gravel, but bluish when you see it against the green trees, so I am guessing it is burning oil. The smoke fills the garage, and does not dissapate quickly. The smoke doesn't seem to be quite as blue as the oil that my 200,000 mile Acura puts out.

I will check the fluids regularly, and see if I can figure out what is happening with them. I am still open to ideas before I tear into the engine or take it to the dealer.

 

[Egon]

I'd almost guess [ and guess it is ] at a broken piston ring.

Egon

 

[AntrimMan]

Well bad luck. I was hoping for you that it was just an oil puddle and would clear up. Sorry for you and your's misfortune.

All the best,
Martin

 

[LetsRoll]

OffBalance,
I'm no expert but I do machine rings for a living. A ring in a dieseal is one of the weakest links. If memory serves me, new holland does not put sleeves in your tractor engine. I would stop using your tractor and get the problem fixed. You could be doing damage to the block. And to get a replacement block, you'll have to get into your wallet for the funds for a new block. And I'm not even sure replacement blocks are being offered. You might have to purchase a new engine if one of the cylinders are cracked. I'm not even sure you can buy a sleeve for your engine if it has a crack. The company I work for does machine sleeves as well, but not sure for your engine.

 

[Tim_in_IA]

Offbalance,

If your warranty doesn't cover the repairs you might check to see if your homeowner policy will cover this since it was an accident and not normal machine wear. I know my tractor is covered by my homeowners policy, but I don't know to what extent (if it is just theft and fire or what). Would be worth checking if the deductable is cheaper than the repair.

 

[OffBalance]

Well, yesterday I bit the bullet and made all the necessary phone calls. I went over the story with the dealer, and he gave me some quick "from the hip" estimates. Then I called my insurance agent. He told me what the deductible was, and that my equipment was on a separate policy from my homeowner's insurance. He also told me there was no "informational claim" mechanism. He recommended I have the dealer provide estimates and then we would decide how to proceed with the claim.

So I called the dealer back and arranged to take the tractor in. They do not do that sort of work in their shop where I bought the tractor in Issaquah WA, so he said I would have to take it up to their Mt Vernon branch. I mentioned that my trailer brakes were dead, and the dealer said, "Hey no problem. I have a trailer here that belongs up at the Mt Vernon shop. You can take it up for us." I live in between the two branches, so I drove down to Issaquah to get the trailer, home to load the tractor, and up to the to Mt Vernon branch.

After talking to the service manager (the dealer where I bought the tractor had called ahead, so the paperwork was ready when I arrived) we went out to the trailer, and two mechanics went with us. When I started the tractor, one mechanic said "Bent rods." The other checked the air filter for oil, and said it looked fine.

They had another rollover in the shop (anyone here?) that was in a lot worse shape than mine - including bent rods, cracked axle, etc. They were amazed how good of shape mine was in. But we'll see what they tell me tomorrow when they call, and how the insurance company responds.

I'll keep all y'all posted!

 

[Junkman]

the "informational claim" that I had referred to was letting the agent know about the problem and his putting into your file a note that it was reported. That covers both you and the agent if there is a problem later on. Some agents will forward this onto the company also. I had someone run into the back of my car and claim that they were going to pay for the damage. I reported it to my agent and he reported it to the insurance company, but they did nothing more than issue a claim number. This was in case the other party didn't come through with payment, I could still get my collision coverage to pay for the damage. It took about 60 days, but the other persons insurance eventually paid me and I notified the agent to close the file. This procedure might vary by state and companies. Good luck with your tractor, and hopefully it will back to you soon. Wonder if they will let you use their trailer to take it home????

 

[OffBalance]

Well everyone, I finally brought my tractor home today! For the record, I took it to the dealer in Mount Vernon, Wash. for a diagnosis. They did a compression check and found that cylinder 3 was 100 psi lower than the others. They took off the valve cover and saw no problems with the valve train, and the injectors looked fine too. At that point, the diagnosis and money I had already spent were equal to my deductible, so I called the insurance and made a claim. The dealer took off the head and found that piston 3 was not coming up as high as it should. Bent Rod!

They ordered the parts, and at that time I had to leave for New Mexico for a family emergency. They put in a new rod, piston+rings, bearings, pin, etc. as well as replacing the bent fender and loader control arm. They put about 40 hours of work into it, and then put it on the dyno for a breaking in period.

The insurance company was also great to deal with, and agreed to cover the parts I already had purchased as well as a small amount to cover my gasoline etc. for taking the tractor to the dealership.

The weather forecast was calling for rain for the foreseeable future, so since it was not raining earlier, I spent the evening mowing the field. Ran great!

And yes Junkman, the dealer did let me borrow a trailer for the day to bring it home. All I can say, is this is a class act dealership, and I am glad I chose them to do business with. For those who haven't heard, The Dealer Makes a Difference!

 

[cp1969]

I haven't read this whole thread so maybe somebody else covered this. If so, I apologize for being too lazy to read all posts.

If the rod got bent through hydro-locking, I would thing the chances are pretty good that the crank suffered damage as well. It absorbed the same force. I hope your dealer had a way to verify that the crank was unharmed.