truck or suv
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heehaw
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i agree, i had a suburu several years ago that had been totaled and rebuilt..and had over 300,000 miles on it..
i did end up putting another engine from another total in it while i had it...but that was pretty cheap, and it ran like new again..
heehaw
i did end up putting another engine from another total in it while i had it...but that was pretty cheap, and it ran like new again..
heehaw
To20Chris
Platinum Member
If you are looking at the small 4WDs, it can be like pulling teeth to find out what kind of 4WD system they have. I guess the marketing guys figure no one understands or cares, so they don't put that in the specs. A lot of them these days have a front wheel drive setup with an electic clutch pack to drive the shaft to the rear axle. When the computer detects "too much" slippage (via the ABS wheel sensors usually), it tuns on the electric clutch and drives the rear wheels. There is usually some kind of viscous-coupling device in line with the clutch to allow the axles to turn at different speeds somewhat. The problem I have with these systems is that they are usually behind. There is a big difference between driving both axles all the time, or only driving one until the wheels slip. If you are always driving both, you have a lower chance of slipping in the first place.
I just recently bought a Hyundai SantaFe with a 2.7L V6 & 4WD. This version has a mechanical full-time 4WD, with a viscous coupled limited slip driving the rear drive shaft, and a limited slip rear diff. Normally sends 60% of the power to the front, 40% to the rear. The mileage isn't great, but it's as good as the Non-hybrid Ford Ecape. It drives really nicely too - I haven't had the change to drive it in snow yet, but the traction seems great in the wet and on our gravel drive. The 3.5L V6 has a completely different system with clutches.
You can get a really nice full time 4WD in Jeep Liberty, but the mileage is even worse, and most dealers don't bother ordering them with the good system.
As for part time 4WD, I always get a kick out of the people who think they bought a 4WD, and don't realize they have a rear wheel drive truck that is light in the back, and has an open rear diff. They can't even pull away from a stop sign in the wet without spinning. A lot of people think full-time systems are wimpy, but not if you've experienced what the full-time system in my old Grand Wagoneer can do! If you're going out on the Rubicon, get serious part time system with tall springs, skid plates, and a limited slip. But you're not really going to do that, are you? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I just recently bought a Hyundai SantaFe with a 2.7L V6 & 4WD. This version has a mechanical full-time 4WD, with a viscous coupled limited slip driving the rear drive shaft, and a limited slip rear diff. Normally sends 60% of the power to the front, 40% to the rear. The mileage isn't great, but it's as good as the Non-hybrid Ford Ecape. It drives really nicely too - I haven't had the change to drive it in snow yet, but the traction seems great in the wet and on our gravel drive. The 3.5L V6 has a completely different system with clutches.
You can get a really nice full time 4WD in Jeep Liberty, but the mileage is even worse, and most dealers don't bother ordering them with the good system.
As for part time 4WD, I always get a kick out of the people who think they bought a 4WD, and don't realize they have a rear wheel drive truck that is light in the back, and has an open rear diff. They can't even pull away from a stop sign in the wet without spinning. A lot of people think full-time systems are wimpy, but not if you've experienced what the full-time system in my old Grand Wagoneer can do! If you're going out on the Rubicon, get serious part time system with tall springs, skid plates, and a limited slip. But you're not really going to do that, are you? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RobertN
Super Member
You did not describe your road except for situations which involve speed. How fast are you talking when your Toy puckers up a little?
By what you describe, you make access ok, but at a slow to moderate speed. If you commute 100 miles, keep your Toy, and get a second 2wd high mpg commuter car. 1.5 miles going slow compared to 100 miles of grueling commute is a small trade-off, especially if you have the tractor and can make some progress over the next few months.
If you are building, you'll want a truck for carrying stuff. SUV's are ok, but it is hard to replace a truck. I grew up around an Jeep Cj5 and a triler; just did not replace a truck.
By what you describe, you make access ok, but at a slow to moderate speed. If you commute 100 miles, keep your Toy, and get a second 2wd high mpg commuter car. 1.5 miles going slow compared to 100 miles of grueling commute is a small trade-off, especially if you have the tractor and can make some progress over the next few months.
If you are building, you'll want a truck for carrying stuff. SUV's are ok, but it is hard to replace a truck. I grew up around an Jeep Cj5 and a triler; just did not replace a truck.
Ha! okay everbody, thanks for all the input.
Subaru? hadn't thought of that. I'm so impressed by toyota trucks, they last forever. wife has a 94 grand voyager with 170k, just put a rebuilt trans in...she loves that thing. i will have a truck whether it's a new one, or just keeping this one and getting a suv or subaru. Chris, i see what you mean about all the different choices on awd...subaru has 4 options i think. ultimately, it seems something with a bit of extra traction and ground clearance will help, the road isn't quite the Rubicon trail...the rocks are smaller. sounds like everyone votes against the CRV, the mileage on the subaru is intriguing. thanks again everyone.
paul
Subaru? hadn't thought of that. I'm so impressed by toyota trucks, they last forever. wife has a 94 grand voyager with 170k, just put a rebuilt trans in...she loves that thing. i will have a truck whether it's a new one, or just keeping this one and getting a suv or subaru. Chris, i see what you mean about all the different choices on awd...subaru has 4 options i think. ultimately, it seems something with a bit of extra traction and ground clearance will help, the road isn't quite the Rubicon trail...the rocks are smaller. sounds like everyone votes against the CRV, the mileage on the subaru is intriguing. thanks again everyone.
paul
timb
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I will strongly 2nd and underline what Chris said about the differences between versions of '4wd'. I don't have much faith in the systems that are normally running in 2wd (i.e. 1wd) mode *until* something starts to go wrong. Around here we get plenty of mixed dry/wet/ice/snowpack conditions all winter long on the roads and heavy thunderstorms in the summer and I wanted a system that splits torque all the time. Off road in true slop it probably makes far less difference.
I special ordered my 'regular' Cherokee to get the full-time transfer case ("Select-Trac"). This box actually has 5 modes - 2wd high, full-time 4wd high, part-time (locked up) 4wd high and low ranges, and a neutral for tow-behind. I also ordered the limited slip rear diff. Optioned that way, with decent 'all around' tires (BFG T/A ATs) that Jeep has been the best all-weather on-road commuter I've ever driven and has proved just as capable pretty far off-road as well. You can get fundamentally the same set up in the Liberty now, although I'm not completely whelmed by the Libertys over all. I'd buy another Cherokee like mine in a heartbeat. Hopefully at 125K it's got a long life ahead yet, though. Don't know what I'll replace it with. There's not many systems out there that are true all-the-time torque splitting and even fewer that have that range of flexibilty.
I special ordered my 'regular' Cherokee to get the full-time transfer case ("Select-Trac"). This box actually has 5 modes - 2wd high, full-time 4wd high, part-time (locked up) 4wd high and low ranges, and a neutral for tow-behind. I also ordered the limited slip rear diff. Optioned that way, with decent 'all around' tires (BFG T/A ATs) that Jeep has been the best all-weather on-road commuter I've ever driven and has proved just as capable pretty far off-road as well. You can get fundamentally the same set up in the Liberty now, although I'm not completely whelmed by the Libertys over all. I'd buy another Cherokee like mine in a heartbeat. Hopefully at 125K it's got a long life ahead yet, though. Don't know what I'll replace it with. There's not many systems out there that are true all-the-time torque splitting and even fewer that have that range of flexibilty.
rozett
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Paul, I don't know how big your family is.... do you need the extra seats in the SUV?
I have a Ford Excursion. While my gasser would drive you into the poor house with your commute, more than 50% of the Excursions are sold with the PowerStroke diesel. They get low to mid twenties for mileage on the cheaper diesel fuel. And they are (arguably) THE best tow vehicle out there. I deliver firewood in my 12k # dump trailer and it pulls some very steep hills with ease. On several occasions, I've needed the 4WD to extract myself and the trailer from the customers back yard.
I have a Ford Excursion. While my gasser would drive you into the poor house with your commute, more than 50% of the Excursions are sold with the PowerStroke diesel. They get low to mid twenties for mileage on the cheaper diesel fuel. And they are (arguably) THE best tow vehicle out there. I deliver firewood in my 12k # dump trailer and it pulls some very steep hills with ease. On several occasions, I've needed the 4WD to extract myself and the trailer from the customers back yard.
Tim and Chris,
Your comments about 4wd vs awd are dully noted. Rozet a diesel excursion? hmmm, that sounds pretty cool. would really like a diesel and that mileage is not really bad. my tacoma only gets 25mpg on a good day. the extra toeing capacity of a diesel is appealing too. my tractor (NHTN65) weighs in at 5100, loaded tires and FEL bring it over 6000, it would be nice to be able to take it with me. i had a reality check yesterday. i drove the CRV, i'm 6'5" and my knees were hitting the dashboard, so I tried the Pilot. Was nice but felt more like a luxury than utility vehicle, which i suppose it is(shades of chris and tim) then drove a highlander which felt a bit huskier than the pilot, then drove the 4runner and saw the big difference. i really liked the 4runner.
paul
Your comments about 4wd vs awd are dully noted. Rozet a diesel excursion? hmmm, that sounds pretty cool. would really like a diesel and that mileage is not really bad. my tacoma only gets 25mpg on a good day. the extra toeing capacity of a diesel is appealing too. my tractor (NHTN65) weighs in at 5100, loaded tires and FEL bring it over 6000, it would be nice to be able to take it with me. i had a reality check yesterday. i drove the CRV, i'm 6'5" and my knees were hitting the dashboard, so I tried the Pilot. Was nice but felt more like a luxury than utility vehicle, which i suppose it is(shades of chris and tim) then drove a highlander which felt a bit huskier than the pilot, then drove the 4runner and saw the big difference. i really liked the 4runner.
paul
hazmat
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I drive an F150 Supercrew 4X4 (15mpg)
Wife drives a Honda Pilot. For the size (same length as an explorer, but 6" wider) you won't find better gas milage (21pmg). If you're sold on toyota, check out the highlander (a bit smaller than the Pilot). If you don't need as much cargo space, the subaru is an excellant option.
I consider the Pilot, Highlander, and Outback crossover vehicles. Unibody construction & no low range 4X4. The crossovers get much better gas milage and tend to drive better than traditional SUVs. You give up some towing capacity. Pilot maxes out at 3,500 / 5,000# (camper/boat). Personally any more than that & I'd rather tow with a full size truck. You also lose low range, I've used that a grand total of 2 times in 3 years on my pickup.
When I bought the truck, the wife had a Honda civic, thus I got the crew cab, short bed. Since then we got the Pilot. If I were buying a truck today, I'd give up cab space for bed space.
If only one vehicle, get one of the larger SUVs and a trailer for your hauling needs. If two, look hard at the crossover vehicles - Escape, Subaru, Pilot, CRV, Highander, RAV4, GM has some, but don't remember the names...
Wife drives a Honda Pilot. For the size (same length as an explorer, but 6" wider) you won't find better gas milage (21pmg). If you're sold on toyota, check out the highlander (a bit smaller than the Pilot). If you don't need as much cargo space, the subaru is an excellant option.
I consider the Pilot, Highlander, and Outback crossover vehicles. Unibody construction & no low range 4X4. The crossovers get much better gas milage and tend to drive better than traditional SUVs. You give up some towing capacity. Pilot maxes out at 3,500 / 5,000# (camper/boat). Personally any more than that & I'd rather tow with a full size truck. You also lose low range, I've used that a grand total of 2 times in 3 years on my pickup.
When I bought the truck, the wife had a Honda civic, thus I got the crew cab, short bed. Since then we got the Pilot. If I were buying a truck today, I'd give up cab space for bed space.
If only one vehicle, get one of the larger SUVs and a trailer for your hauling needs. If two, look hard at the crossover vehicles - Escape, Subaru, Pilot, CRV, Highander, RAV4, GM has some, but don't remember the names...
California
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I'm finding that a Subaru Outback plus a 1 ton (gross) utility trailer meets all my needs. See the attached photo. The trailer was $600 from Home Depot. Its only 500 lbs net so almost unnoticeable when empty. I think they are marketed in the East as snowmobile trailers.
When I bought the Outback I kept my previous 'real' 4x4, the Trooper in my sig photos. But in five years since I bought the Outback I've only really needed the Trooper once. That was to fetch my 'new' Yanmar from 100 miles away. Even with an excellent U-Haul racecar trailer, as soon as I got on the road I realized I should have rented a 3/4 ton pickup to tow that 5000 lb (total) load. I can't bear to get rid of the Trooper but realistically it just sits parked when the kids don't need it. The Outback's capabilities are a near 100% overlap.
One tip for anyone considering an Outback for moderately severe offroad use - get the automatic transmission since its torque converter serves the function of a low range. You can apply all the torque you have traction for, at 0 mph. This is important, to start from a standstill in difficult terrain. With a M/T and no low range you would need to rev high and dump the clutch, then still probably stall as you start lurching over big rocks or whatever you stopped for. The A/T allows maneuvering slowly over extremely rough ground without drama.
For example, each harvest season I tow the trailer down into the back of the orchard where Dad used to bury his 3 speed Chevy pickup. Where he used to make big roostertails to get moving up the plowed slope, this Outback and loaded trailer simply climb back out of there without wheelspin.
Also - someone commented on delay while AWD engages. Outback's system is unnoticeable. A better way to describe it is that it never lets the front axle turn faster than the back axle. AWD is there when needed to get rolling or to power through a curve, without any of the squirrely cornering that a 'real' 4x4 exhibits when you let off the throttle. Have you ever seen videos of World Rally Cup racing? Subaru *owns* that class! Nuff said.
This Outback is by far the best of the seven 4x4's I've owned.
When I bought the Outback I kept my previous 'real' 4x4, the Trooper in my sig photos. But in five years since I bought the Outback I've only really needed the Trooper once. That was to fetch my 'new' Yanmar from 100 miles away. Even with an excellent U-Haul racecar trailer, as soon as I got on the road I realized I should have rented a 3/4 ton pickup to tow that 5000 lb (total) load. I can't bear to get rid of the Trooper but realistically it just sits parked when the kids don't need it. The Outback's capabilities are a near 100% overlap.
One tip for anyone considering an Outback for moderately severe offroad use - get the automatic transmission since its torque converter serves the function of a low range. You can apply all the torque you have traction for, at 0 mph. This is important, to start from a standstill in difficult terrain. With a M/T and no low range you would need to rev high and dump the clutch, then still probably stall as you start lurching over big rocks or whatever you stopped for. The A/T allows maneuvering slowly over extremely rough ground without drama.
For example, each harvest season I tow the trailer down into the back of the orchard where Dad used to bury his 3 speed Chevy pickup. Where he used to make big roostertails to get moving up the plowed slope, this Outback and loaded trailer simply climb back out of there without wheelspin.
Also - someone commented on delay while AWD engages. Outback's system is unnoticeable. A better way to describe it is that it never lets the front axle turn faster than the back axle. AWD is there when needed to get rolling or to power through a curve, without any of the squirrely cornering that a 'real' 4x4 exhibits when you let off the throttle. Have you ever seen videos of World Rally Cup racing? Subaru *owns* that class! Nuff said.
This Outback is by far the best of the seven 4x4's I've owned.
