Two speed PTO

Malvern Michael · Aug 24, 2019

I recently bought a new Branson 47 f series cab tractor and it has a two speed pto but it doesn稚 say in my owners book how to operate it, the 540 is easy but how do I use the 780? Do I still set engine speed as for 540 or lower as I thought it was a fuel saving idea and what implements can go on the 780?
Thanks Michael

oosik · Aug 24, 2019

Michael - I have no idea. I would call the service dept at the dealership where you purchased the tractor. Usually, if you have a two speed system it's - 540 & 1000. I know many rotary cutters have units that are 1000 rpm rated - same with chippers.

Grumpycat · Aug 24, 2019

I too am learning. Have seen tractors with a dual 750-ish and 540 RPM PTO. Have seen others with dual "540E/540" PTO where 540E was described as the economy PTO when full HP is not needed. Was told a governor kicks in to hold engine RPM down to maintain the 540 RPM. Am guessing the 750 tractor was doing the same thing but not paying patent rights to whoever thought to connect a governor to the PTO speed switch.

ericm979 · Aug 24, 2019

The governor is not connected to the PTO. It's connected to the "throttle" lever (and pedal if you have one). Setting the engine speed to the correct speed for running the PTO is manual.

The 780 RPM gear is intended to be used with 540 rpm implements but with the engine at a lower RPM. That way you can have the engine going slower which gives slightly better fuel economy and a little less noise. You'll have to math to figure out the right engine RPM. For my 3725 regular PTO RPM is 2500 which makes the engine RPM for 780 gear be 2500 * (540/780) or 1730 rpm. Since that's below the tach's green range for best operation with the emissions system I don't use the 780 gear.

Grumpycat · Aug 24, 2019

ericm979 said:
The governor is not connected to the PTO. It's connected to the "throttle" lever (and pedal if you have one). Setting the engine speed to the correct speed for running the PTO is manual.

More correctly I should have said the governor (or limiter) was connected to the PTO speed select switch on "540E" models. That when 540E is selected a lower maximum engine speed is enforced. That on 750-whatever models it is up to the operator to ensure PTO doesn't exceed the design limits of the implement.

deserteagle71 · Aug 25, 2019

There is no governor or limiter on my Kubota M7060. As soon as the PTO is engaged, the dash display changes from engine hours to PTO rpm, but it is up to me as the operator to make sure I'm running a 540 rpm implement at 540 rpm. Since I almost always use e-PTO, to get the PTO rpm at 540 rpm my engine rpm has to be just over 1800 rpm. On a New Holland T4.75 running at e-PTO, 540 rpm is achieved at only 1560 engine rpm. So it would be very easy to run the implement at speeds it was not designed for.

No governor or limiter on my old John Deere 2020, with only one speed on the PTO, either! And since the tach on it doesn't seem to be accurate, I just rev the engine until the implement "feels" like it is turning at the correct speed. Been doing it that way for many years.

kthompson · Aug 25, 2019

If they don't have it indicated on your engine tach they really ought to have it in the manual. Don't think you will be able to calculate the engine rpm as you will not have the gearing info for the pto. Some tractors pto speed really increase a lot with the last say 300 of the engine rpms to reach there full speed.

I know some tractors have a speed selector lever on them as does my JD with 540e which I used a lot for spraying. One safety issue will point out on setting for the full pto speed with lower engine speeds, be sure to have them off before you pull out on a road. The travel speed is greatly limited. Experience there. lol

oosik · Aug 25, 2019

Most interesting and educational. My 2009 Kubota M6040 has neither governor/limiter nor e-PTO. When I engage the PTO - the dash also displays PTO rpm's along with engine rpm's. It takes a tad less than 2100 engine rpm's to achieve 540 PTO rpm's. It's quite obvious that if ePTO will get the job done - it's going to save on fuel.

However - the only implement I have "on the PTO" is my Wallenstein BX62S. From years of experience - I wouldn't be using e-PTO to run the chipper anyhow. A 6 1/2" pine will, at times, take a lot of power to complete the first three feet or so of the pine. I feed all the pines into the chipper - butt end first and whole.

LouNY · Aug 25, 2019

On my 8050 the economy pto or 780 rpm selection allows me to get 540 at 1700 rpm.
My tachometer does not have a marking for the proper engine rpm.
I use the economy mode quite often, my sickle bar mower, the tedder, and even on a 8 ft brush hog when I'm doing light triming and such.
Also when I'm running my generator. The Branson doesn't have any connection from the pto speed selection with the engine governor,
so if desired you can overspeed a 540 implement using it.
Some tractors especially the common rail with lots of computer control do tie the pto speed selection into the electronic governor to prevent overspeeding an implement.
Some of the Bransons actually have a 3 speed for the pto where the same shaft can be geared for 540, 780 or 1000 rpm at fullspeed, and as I recall many of the gray market had 4 speeds of course it also seems like they rotated in the opposite direction that ours do.

ericm979 · Aug 25, 2019

kthompson said:
Don't think you will be able to calculate the engine rpm as you will not have the gearing info for the pto.

All you need is the engine RPM for 540 rpm in the 540 PTO gear, and the target PTO rpm of the other PTO gear, as I showed in my last post. Since everything is using gears (even on an HST tractor) the relationships are all linear.

ptsg · Aug 25, 2019

Here is a picture from the service manual for the F/15 series about the PTO Gears. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out the right RPM for the 540E with a simple math, although, the dashboard does have a mark for both 540 and 540E speeds.

Anyways, the 540E is around 1800/1900 engine RPM, right at the engine torque peak.

Cougsfan · Aug 25, 2019

I use the PTO for spraying, post hole digging, fertilizer spreading (broadcast), and mowing. I have no idea at what engine rpm produces the 540 or 780, but I'd also guess it is about 2000 rpm on my tractor. I do agree that it is all linear. As everything but mowing is very low hp usage, I always use the 780 rpm setting running the tractor at low rpms. Sometimes I have to rev the tractor up a little more when mowing heavy brush. If I remember, I turn it down to 540, but usually I forget.
With the Branson and it's soot burner, a lot of people have difficulty running at low rpm, so the 520 setting may be a bit more important. I have never had a problem letting my 4720 chug around at low rpms though.

kthompson · Aug 26, 2019

ericm979 said:
All you need is the engine RPM for 540 rpm in the 540 PTO gear, and the target PTO rpm of the other PTO gear, as I showed in my last post. Since everything is using gears (even on an HST tractor) the relationships are all linear.

eric, not saying you are wrong, just never heard of the formula you are using. Reading this post think I can understand it but want to ask it a different way to be sure.
So if you had the engine rpms for a 1,000 rpm pto and only wanted 540 pto rpms you would use 54 percent of the engine rpms? That makes sense to me.

That makes sense if the gearing is not affected as it is in my JD when you switch to 540E. It does changing the gearing to the PTO. The engine rpms are also capped at the engine speed to get that 540 pto speed. So if the gear changes as it does with my JD then the company needs to show the engine rpms or you need a way to check the pto rpms, I think.

This does go to point out again some of the potential issues with gray market tractors.

5030 · Aug 26, 2019

My M9000 Kubota has a 2 speed (540 / 1000) PTO. It's a 540 6 spline and a 1000 21 spline. The tach is marked for the 540 pto speed but not the 1000. However, 1000 RPM is also attained the 540 mark on the tach. I use the 1000 21 spline with a 6 spline adapter for running less power intensive implements like a hay rake or grain leg because it consumes less fuel and less wear and tear on the engine. I used the formula in post 11 to ascertain the correct pto speed plus I used a mechanical contact type tach on the shaft end to determine the exact rpm and I marked the tach face to show that rpm.

Mine is a 2 pto shaft setup. I change out the shafts (either a 540 6 spline or the 1000 21 spline shaft) depending in what I need to run.

LouNY · Aug 26, 2019

My Branson 8050 with it's 2 speed pto;
in speed 1 is 540 pto rpm with 2500 engine rpm
in speed 2 is 760 pto rpm with 2500 engine rpm.

so to get 540 pto rpm in speed 2,
2500/760= 3.289 (engine revolutions per pto rev.) x 540= 1776 engine rpm for 540 pto rpm in speed 2

The Branson being a mechanical injection with no computer control has no automatic or governor limiter on the pto speed so it could run a 540 implement at a higher speed then designed for, it could turn it at 760 rpm easily.

The IH Puma at the farm is an electronic common rail on it when the economy mode is selected it will electronically limit the governed speed to prevent overspeeding a 540 rpm implement. A similar limiter is found in the transmission control, it is limited to 25 mph but 19th gear has the mechanical capability of going faster so the computer limits the engine rpm so the operator can not exceed 25 mph.

All economy pto's are a gear shift in the pto module of the tractor some tractors will be limited to prevent overspeeding an implement, others will require the operator to maintain an engine rpm limit that will not over speed their equipment.

ptsg · Aug 26, 2019

Right on Lou. Although it's interesting to see that a much bigger tractor, uses the same exact engine RPMs for the PTO as my tractor.

I use the 540E all the time. Mowing and tilling ground that has never been touched in 20+ years. Never had the need for the regular 540, but sometimes I use it mostly as a break in procedure for 10 or 15 minutes.

ericm979 · Aug 26, 2019

kthompson said:
eric, not saying you are wrong, just never heard of the formula you are using. Reading this post think I can understand it but want to ask it a different way to be sure.
So if you had the engine rpms for a 1,000 rpm pto and only wanted 540 pto rpms you would use 54 percent of the engine rpms? That makes sense to me.

Yep. That's what I mean by the relationships are all linear.

kthompson said:
That makes sense if the gearing is not affected as it is in my JD when you switch to 540E. It does changing the gearing to the PTO. The engine rpms are also capped at the engine speed to get that 540 pto speed. So if the gear changes as it does with my JD then the company needs to show the engine rpms or you need a way to check the pto rpms, I think.

The tractors I've had have not had any feature to limit engine RPMS depending on the PTO gear selected. That'd be useful but would require EFI to avoid a complicated linkage.

Branson should have put a mark on the tach corresponding to 540 rpm in the 760 PTO gear. It wouldn't have cost any more.

ptsg · Aug 26, 2019

Interesting. I do have a mark for the 540E on my tractor.

Malvern Michael · Aug 26, 2019

I don’t have the second pto mark on my rev counter and without knowing what rpm to set the engine at I can’t use the second pto setting
Michael

Industrial Toys · Aug 26, 2019

Lack of PTO speed options has always been an irritation on gear drive tractors. You might only have two reverse speeds and have to have rated engine RPM.