Unfathomable

[KennyG]

ICE engine uses, in my estimation, about 5% of the energy that initially came from the ground. Battery powered electric motor, in this respect, beats ICE hands down. We should use hydrocarbons to make something more useful than burning it.

You're way low there. Per Argonne National Lab study, the average refinery is about 85% efficient in producing gasoline or diesel.

Although traditional Otto cycle gasoline engines only have a thermal efficiency of about 20%, the variable valve timing and other advances have brought them up to 25 to 30% and the Atkinson cycle engines used in hybrids can get to over 35%. Diesels can be 40% or so.

If the electricity to charge the batteries came from a thermal power plant, it was probably 40 to 55% efficient and then there are transmission and charging losses.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Certainly interesting. JD wants around 3K for a new motor for my E-Gator, and about that again for a controller. Yet, very basic stuff. No one ever talks about life cycle costs and it's probably more an important factor these days, than ever.

 

[Redneck in training]

You're way low there. Per Argonne National Lab study, the average refinery is about 85% efficient in producing gasoline or diesel.

Although traditional Otto cycle gasoline engines only have a thermal efficiency of about 20%, the variable valve timing and other advances have brought them up to 25 to 30% and the Atkinson cycle engines used in hybrids can get to over 35%. Diesels can be 40% or so.

If the electricity to charge the batteries came from a thermal power plant, it was probably 40 to 55% efficient and then there are transmission and charging losses.

I looked at several sources at internet (if you can trust them). Refined products gasoline and diesel will contain 68% of BTU of the crude at best. The number doesn't take into account energy used to make refinery work. Refineries recover a lot of energy (heat) to run the machinery but that covers only portion of the energy required. Considering energy spent refining crude the the refined products contain about 61% of the initial crude energy. ICE converts about 30% of fuel energy to useful work or about 20% of initial energy contained in crude. Now add energy used to get the crude and transport it to the refinery and energy used to deliver fuel to the gas station etc and you get quite low total efficiency number.
Modern combine cycle power plants are approaching 70% efficiency. Battery chargers are about 95% efficient, Li-ion batteries charge discharge cycle is nearly 100% efficient and electric motors are also highly efficient. In other words battery powered electric car converts about 90% of generated energy to useful work or about 60% of the energy contained in the fuel burned in the power plant. While electric power generation suffers similar fuel transportation and power delivery losses as liquid fuel the losses are most likely significantly lower. Therefore I think electric cars are significantly better users of energy resources.

 

[ovrszd]

I looked at several sources at internet (if you can trust them). Refined products gasoline and diesel will contain 68% of BTU of the crude at best. The number doesn't take into account energy used to make refinery work. Refineries recover a lot of energy (heat) to run the machinery but that covers only portion of the energy required. Considering energy spent refining crude the the refined products contain about 61% of the initial crude energy. ICE converts about 30% of fuel energy to useful work or about 20% of initial energy contained in crude. Now add energy used to get the crude and transport it to the refinery and energy used to deliver fuel to the gas station etc and you get quite low total efficiency number.
Modern combine cycle power plants are approaching 70% efficiency. Battery chargers are about 95% efficient, Li-ion batteries charge discharge cycle is nearly 100% efficient and electric motors are also highly efficient. In other words battery powered electric car converts about 90% of generated energy to useful work or about 60% of the energy contained in the fuel burned in the power plant. While electric power generation suffers similar fuel transportation and power delivery losses as liquid fuel the losses are most likely significantly lower. Therefore I think electric cars are significantly better users of energy resources.

There's much more to it than what you stated. You have to consider what it takes to produce the electric car and what it's lifespan is, necessary repairs during that lifespan, etc. Carbon footprint.

 

[Redneck in training]

There's much more to it than what you stated. You have to consider what it takes to produce the electric car and what it's lifespan is, necessary repairs during that lifespan, etc. Carbon footprint.

My bet is the carbon footprint is about the same as manufacturing of gasoline vehicle.
I am biased toward electric cars because:
1.) They are fun to drive. As one of the Tesla tester described it. They have implant flattening acceleration.
2.) No oil changes EVER.
3.) Even when we buy the energy at retail they are still way cheaper to operate.
4.) Cost of "fuel" is way less volatile than gas or diesel.
5.) They are quiet.
6.) They reached a driving range that makes them practical transportation for majority of our driving (I mean like 99% even though we live 12 miles from the closest grocery store and 45 miles from large city)
7.) The Middle East can keep their oil. Screw them.
8.) The hydrocarbon saved can be used to make something more useful than heat.
9.) They can have, potentially, better aerodynamics. They have flat floor, no induced drag by air flow through engine compartment etc.
10.) They don't depend on single source of energy (crude oil) but can be powered by PV, wind, water, nuclear, coal, NG, bio fuels etc.
11.) We make our own electric power. That I would love to use for myself instead selling to the utility for $ 0.035/kWh.
12.) Charging time and instant availability is not too relevant for us. We are retired.

 

[ovrszd]

My bet is the carbon footprint is about the same as manufacturing of gasoline vehicle.
I am biased toward electric cars because:
1.) They are fun to drive. As one of the Tesla tester described it. They have implant flattening acceleration.
2.) No oil changes EVER.
3.) Even when we buy the energy at retail they are still way cheaper to operate.
4.) Cost of "fuel" is way less volatile than gas or diesel.
5.) They are quiet.
6.) They reached a driving range that makes them practical transportation for majority of our driving (I mean like 99% even though we live 12 miles from the closest grocery store and 45 miles from large city)
7.) The Middle East can keep their oil. Screw them.
8.) The hydrocarbon saved can be used to make something more useful than heat.
9.) They can have, potentially, better aerodynamics. They have flat floor, no induced drag by air flow through engine compartment etc.
10.) They don't depend on single source of energy (crude oil) but can be powered by PV, wind, water, nuclear, coal, NG, bio fuels etc.
11.) We make our own electric power. That I would love to use for myself instead selling to the utility for $ 0.035/kWh.
12.) Charging time and instant availability is not too relevant for us. We are retired.

I appreciate your enthusiasm.

Maybe Google it.

 

[KennyG]

I looked at several sources at internet (if you can trust them). Refined products gasoline and diesel will contain 68% of BTU of the crude at best. The number doesn't take into account energy used to make refinery work. Refineries recover a lot of energy (heat) to run the machinery but that covers only portion of the energy required. Considering energy spent refining crude the the refined products contain about 61% of the initial crude energy. ICE converts about 30% of fuel energy to useful work or about 20% of initial energy contained in crude. Now add energy used to get the crude and transport it to the refinery and energy used to deliver fuel to the gas station etc and you get quite low total efficiency number.
Modern combine cycle power plants are approaching 70% efficiency. Battery chargers are about 95% efficient, Li-ion batteries charge discharge cycle is nearly 100% efficient and electric motors are also highly efficient. In other words battery powered electric car converts about 90% of generated energy to useful work or about 60% of the energy contained in the fuel burned in the power plant. While electric power generation suffers similar fuel transportation and power delivery losses as liquid fuel the losses are most likely significantly lower. Therefore I think electric cars are significantly better users of energy resources.

Maybe there are different ways of calculating refinery efficiency. I'm familiar with this Argonne Lab paper:

https://greet.es.anl.gov/files/petroleum-eff-13

It looks at all products from refineries, not just fuels and shows numbers just under 90%.

The best of the gas combined cycle plants just barely exceed 60%. Most of the electricity is produced in lower efficiency plants.

Also, unless there has been some breakthroughs, the battery charger is about 95% efficient and the charging process is about 95% efficient, resulting in less than 90% overall efficiency.

In general, I'm an electric car fan. I own two hybrids. However, I think we're still requiring $4 or $5 a gallon fuel to make full electric competitive.