Update on injector pump oil

JINMA224XR · Nov 1, 2005

Consider compressor oil as EXTRA detergent oil - keeping the carbon suspended BETTER than simple multigrade detergent oil.


Hey Greg & Chris,

Ok, I'm thuroughly Confused now. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

On the Cambell Hausfeld container, it states that the compressor oil is a NonDetergent Oil ISO100. And it also warns not to use 10w30, which is a multigrade, and states that the 10w30, will cause carbon.

The Air Compressor that I bought about a year ago, states to use 30wgt NonDetergent Oil.

Can someone please straighten me out, or am I doomed to be confused on this forever.

I had thought, that I was using the very best lubricant, in the Fuel Injector Pump before, when I was using 30Wgt NonDetergent Oil. When I changed out the 30 wgt NonDetergent Oil, with about 100 hours on it. The oil that came out was exceptionally clean, about as clean, as if I had poured the oil, right out of a new container of oil. I'm sure that it had particles in it, but it looked very very clean to me.

Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Soundguy · Nov 1, 2005

My C&H manual states that it's recomende3d comp oil IS a 30wt non-det. Sounds like it jives with your info.

Soundguy

SkyPup · Nov 1, 2005

The reason for not using a detergent motor oil with surfactants in it is to keep it from foaming and causing the pump to suck air.....therefore you should specifically use a NON-detergent motor oil to prevent the pumping of air.

greg_g · Nov 1, 2005

I think it's important to note that there are several different types of compressors, each with a specific oil requirement. The formulations of various compressor oils vary significantly depending on the type of compressor, reciprocating and rotary gas compressors - as well as what is being compressed. To confuse things even more, there are detergent type and non-detergent type compressor oils - not to mention synthetic and non-synthetic. It's all in the additives, and the most important additive to this discussion is the one that prevents carbon buildup. To confuse things even more, that additive is actually a detergent in its own right, even if it's IN an oil marked "non-detergent".

What I use is the type specified for reciprocating air compressors, the base oil being non-detergent. Our Chinese injection pumps are also of a reciprocating design, except they compress diesel fuel. Oil for a reciprocating compressor lubricates both the working parts AND the pressurized spaces in a compressor. Lubrication is required for the bearings, pistons, rings, cylinders and valves. That's apparently the low temperature job of the non-detergent base oil. But reciprocating compressor pistons and valves reach temperatures of 220C to 300C, and the oil film on the surfaces of these components must not form carbon. Hard carbon can jack open valves, which can cause a rapid increase in air delivery temperature. Worst case scenario, it can lead to glowing carbon particles in the delivery pipework and valve chamber and ultimately lead to an explosion. This is where the anti-carbon detergent additive goes to work (thus the "extra detergent" comment).

To the guy who I said was wrong about using non-detergent oil, I apologize for not being more specific. I still maintain you shouldn't just use any old non-detergent in a compressor (or injection pump). But you can use a non-detergent compressor oil that contains detergent anti-carbon additives.

To the rest of you, I'm sorry I didn't foresee a need for such detail when I made the initial compressor oil recommendation. In hindsight, it probably would have headed off some of the ensuing question marks.

//greg//

Ranch_Hand_Supp · Nov 1, 2005

This is not directed to anyone.....but back in the old days ......one of my jobs in my dads shop was to go get a quart of oil for one of his employees. There was only 2 weights of motor oil in the parts department...30 & 30HD.

Growing up in his shop I was schooled early that I did not put 30HD in anything that had been using plain 30....and if you did not know ??...you put plain 30 back in. The reason was that the HD would cut the stuff loose that the plain 30 leaves behind. HD became more popular and was found to be better and most wanted to to start out with 30HD then multia grades came. HD = No build up with proper oil service.

I have only used engine oil in Injection pumps and compressor oil in air compressors or 30 weight. Dont know about compressor oil in a injection pump?? I read that some are haveing no problems.

I would have to assume that what is being read on the back of the oil bottle is being related to what they MFD it for or recommending what to use in it .?

Ronald
Ranch Hand Supply

greg_g · Nov 1, 2005

( The reason for not using a detergent motor oil with surfactants in it is to keep it from foaming and causing the pump to suck air.....therefore you should specifically use a NON-detergent motor oil to prevent the pumping of air. )

Don't tell that to the folks that actually MAKE detergent-type compressor oil !!!

//greg//

SPIKER · Nov 1, 2005

Greg:

not sure where you got the 2200C temp at, but that is 4000 degrees F. (actually 3992 degrees F but at that temp stone is liquid and I belive lava is somewhere in the 2500!3500 deg F range, pottery/china as in glass is heat cured at or below 22100 F and is litterly glowing red hot and is soft in a plastic way.

as for compressor oil the debate is a ford vs chevy thing. these (pumps) are actually less of a pump and more of a fluid displacement machine. they draw in fluid then displace it there is no COMPRESSION of the fluid but it simply builds pressure because of the "resistance to flow" this is standard mechanical (hydraulic principals) fluid is used in hydraulic systems because it does not compress it simply moves from the displacement of the pumps pistons to the valves and back to the resiviour building no PRESSURE untill something (valve or cylinder with resistance on it) slows the fluid and increases the pressure untill the resistance is moved or the pump is stalled.

ok now for my 2 cents worth. these pumps shouldn't build any kind of varnish or carbon build up as they are not actually in any kind of combustion process to build carbon up. carbon or varnish would only form under extreme conditions such as explosion residue (happens in the endine piston/cylinder) or when HIGH friction makes HIGH heat and actually burns some of the fluid/oil/fuel in minute quanities along the friction srfaces. these pumps use bearings to produce the flow and these don't produce that kind of friction. now if the injector oil got very low where the bearings was not running in the oil then possably some heating could happen and the buildup begines but that would be from neglect of checking or catrofic breakdown but probably not from the wrong oil.

anyhow I don't want to argue about it but as long as a good oil is used and it is not left to get fuel soaked then these pumps should run just fine with little discoleration of the oil ever happeneing... I use a semi synthetic type in mine and change it more often as it does get some fuel bypass into the pump as someplace there is a bit of a leak internally and the pump has been that way since new.

I also think we ALL can agree that what ever we put in these systems will be a lot better than what they use in china. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

MarkiM

tat2z1969 · Nov 1, 2005

I agree with Spiker.
The pump is not a compressor, in itself its more like a small engine that does not produce fire. For years until the computer controled truck diesel engines came out, all ran off the engine oil for the pumps, Mack, Butaha, Perkins, Ford International. all of them and they ran for hundreds of thousands of miles.
Cooking oil would be better than what China puts in them, yet the Chinese get good service out of the raw crap they use, so I wouldn't read to much into the oil to use in the injector pump. The most important thing is to service it and keep the oil clean, the book says once a year, for as little oil as it takes to fill 3 times a year wouldn't kill ya.
I read a lot of postings here and there, some get carried away with what to use, the Chinese wash their rad's out in a river, drain the engines and heat the water to put back in the engine, they heat the oil to get water out of it. I oil down my dirt road with better than they use in their tractors.
Good 15-40 in the engine and pump, 80-90 in the trans and front end, good old 32 in the hydraulics. I do use charged anti freeze since they have wet liners.

greg_g · Nov 1, 2005

( not sure where you got the 2200C temp at, but that is 4000 degrees F. (actually 3992 degrees F but at that temp stone is liquid and I belive lava is somewhere in the 2500!3500 deg F range, pottery/china as in glass is heat cured at or below 22100 F and is litterly glowing red hot and is soft in a plastic way.)

I fat fingered them - just like you did the "22100 F ". Fixed now.

( it simply builds pressure because of the "resistance to flow")

Um, excuse me. But isn't that sort of a definition of compression by itself? The injection pump builds up sufficient pressure via the hardlines to trip a compression spring (the resistance to flow) in the injector itself. I don't want to stray too far too long from Chinese tractors, but the new TDI has nearly 14,000 psi of pump side pressure (almost 20,000 injector side).

Tell me THAT's not compression.

//greg//

greg_g · Nov 2, 2005

( The pump is not a compressor, in itself its more like a small engine that does not produce fire. )

You guys can say tomahto, I'll say tomayto. Cuz to me an engine with cylinders/pistons/valves et cetera IS a compression device. It can't run without compression. Likewise, a fuel injection pump is a small compression engine - complete with cylinders/pistons/valves et cetera. Just no fire to burn off the carbon.

But hey, you guys use what you want. I'll stick with compressor oil.

//greg//